Master "Forged vs. Cast" or "Blade vs. Game-Improvement" Iron Thread

[PingZing2]

What I havent heard anybody say in this thread is fitting...correct me if I am wrong but, getting properly fitted is probably one of the most important things you need to do when choosing clubs. To this point, most game improvement irons can not be bent the way a good forged iron can.

+1 Clubs that are set for your swing can make a huge difference in how fast your progress with your irons.

[InTheTwenties]

I've played both. Staring out I was a twenty-ish handicapper. I played with GI irons for about 4 years. I took some lessons, got fitted and now have player irons with some GI qualities: perimeter weighting.

I love it. I like the feed back that player irons give me. I makes me a better player. More determined. Better impact, better feel and that sweet click on a great shot.

My point is that GI irons should be a means to an end; a way to get better. You play GI irons to get better, so that you can play a high caliber of irons later. That was my plan and I stuck to it and now I have to change my screen name to InTheTeens instead of InTheTwenties. (alluding to my handicap index).

So, play what you have. Get better. Then be a player.


.

[iacas]

it still just seems completely retarded.

Be reasonable. Let's avoid calling things "retarded," okay? C'mon...

i keep going back to music and it has nothing to do with golf, but i feel the music training ive recieved over the years is one of hte best life lessons ive ever had the pleasure of experiencing.

Music has little to do with golf in terms of instruments, and yet - as I said - the professionals and better "players" always appreciate their tools. A Stradivarius wouldn't sell for millions of dollars if the players that want them couldn't tell the difference between its sound and the sound of a $400 violin.

why would it make sense, to play/use a product that is way over your head? unless maryland is in another universe, I am pretty sure working your way up is the way to get better. Not putting better products in your hands.

Perhaps that's how you work, but try this on for size: I became a single digit golfer inside of two years. My clubs? Muscleback forged Nicklaus/MacGregor irons. They FORCED me to make better ball contact.

Granted, I played just about every day and was committed to the process of improving. They probably wouldn't have worked in the hands of someone who played three times per month. They'd have simply been frustrating.

a Nikon D-80 wont make you any better of a photographer than a Nikon coolpix point and shoot. You need to know how to use the lenses and the ligting and techniques and angles that will produce a quality photograph. And even at that, a great photographer can take a breathtaking photograph with a 6megapixel point and shoot.

True to an extent, but there are a lot of things you simply can NOT do with a "point and shoot" that you can do with a DSLR. Like, for starters, CHANGE LENSES. Or get a really small aperture. Or adjust the ISO. Or accurately set shutter speeds. There are a lot of photos I've taken even in the past week that simply could not have been achieved with a point-and-shoot.

A good photographer can get a good picture with any camera, but it's not just an oddity that they spend $3k to $8k on the camera body alone, and triple that (or more) on the lenses. My tripod cost more than most point-and-shoots. Again, craftsmen appreciate their tools. I would not be able to play as well as I do with game-improvement irons. It'd be far too easy to slip into bad habits.

a gibson les paul will certainly help and enhance a great guitar players skills and abilities. but put a gibson les paul in the hands of an amateur hes still going to be an amateur and will always be an amatuer untill he practices and learns chords and scales and transtions within the music hes playing.

That's where the music analogy falls apart. An amateur CAN tell the difference between a "players" iron and a "game improvement" iron. The first will not compensate for poor contact very much.

sure a corvette with a manual transmission is fast as hell. what if you cant drive a stick?? the corvette isnt going to teach you.

That applies even less than the music analogies.

people are arguing the fact that players irons are within the same ballpark. if your a shitty player, you will continue to be a shitty player no matter what clubs you use and how long you use them.

Huh? So there's no hope unless you're already good? People are only responding to what you're saying, and frankly, it's not making much sense.

With the right mindset, I think using "better" irons than you can help you to improve. I would play WORSE (and have) with more game improvement irons. That's fact, and that's the way it is for some kinds of people.

the title game improvement is actually a HUGE misnomer. because though the club may be more forgiving, the ball goes where you aim it. and if you come over the top you will slice the ball, and if you come from the inside you will infact hit a fade.

You can come over the top and pull the ball too. I know a 3-handicapper who plays a pull as his primary shot.

And coming from the inside rarely results in a fade. You'll block it or hook it.

the idea of a 'players' iron vs. a 'game improvement' is the same idea as like.. commission vs. salary.

Another very bad analogy.

Further reading for those interested: t=1358 t=4402 t=2412

[PingZing2]

Iacas

I think you are better off saving your wrists from carpal tunnel. There are some people that are always right, no matter what facts are presented.

[iacas]

I think you are better off saving your wrists from carpal tunnel. There are some people that are always right, no matter what facts are presented.

You may be right. I just don't like "bad" opinions to exist unchallenged in case someone who doesn't know better reads it and believes it.

[mRogers88]

lol im just pretty sure hes hell bent on proving me wrong which wont work because hes on the inside looking out.

i guess, im sorry?, that my 'analogies' dont make sense to you. that might mean your close minded. i dont know.

you basically opposed every viewpoint i brought up, and stated an apparent reason to why my idea was wrong. but your reasoning makes no sense to me. just as my reasoning for everything makes no sense to you. maybe its the age and generation difference? im willing to bet your quite the bit seasoned yes?

ok.

agreed to disagree.

[iacas]

lol im just pretty sure hes hell bent on proving me wrong which wont work because hes on the inside looking out.

On the inside of what? Did you read where I said I started my career in golf (having played two whole rounds with rented clubs previously) with muscle-back, forged irons?

i guess, im sorry?, that my 'analogies' dont make sense to you. that might mean your close minded. i dont know.

Now I'm close-minded and apparently just too dumb to get your analogies? Perhaps they're just bad analogies? C'mon dude, cut the bologna.

Look at it from my perspective: what possible insight could a guy with a "20-ish" index really provide on "getting better"? From one of your earlier posts, you talk about working the ball like it's a way to make money? Huh? It's how you play better golf. It's how you score. It's how you get out of trouble.

you basically opposed every viewpoint i brought up, and stated an apparent reason to why my idea was wrong. but your reasoning makes no sense to me. just as my reasoning for everything makes no sense to you. maybe its the age and generation difference? im willing to bet your quite the bit seasoned yes?

My age is in my profile. I'm 29. So no... I'm not "quite seasoned." I disagreed with your points because I disagree with them or because they don't seem to make much sense.

I'm going to close the thread now because it's wandering off-topic, but again, I encourage you to read these threads, mRogers, for more discussion: t=1358 t=4402 t=2412

[Lemay427]

Here is something that has been beaten to death but I might have a different spin to it. Right now I play RAC Lt's with Rifle 6.0. I am a solid 8-10 handicap. I have heard people say that they feel playing a forged iron gives them solid feedback on what they are doing with their golf shots and swing. Has anyone felt that playing a forged iron has aided in making them a better player? I can hit forged irons but see no reason to get a new set if It wont help my game. I have been looking at the MP60 and 32 (mixing a set), the CB and MB from Titileist, Nike forged, Taylormade forged (forgot model).

Has anyone felt that the forged irons have helped there game?

[GoFlyers]

Helped there game... naw, that isn't going to happen. A shaft that fits your swing will have a ton more effect then the difference in forged/cast.
The head is a personal preference. I play and have played forged heads for years but even my new KZG Evolutions do not feel that much different then my old Tour Cavity Pro's that were cast stainless steel. I have swung some cast clubs that I didn't like the feel of but I think it would be a strech to say that could effect my swing. The only exception may... and I say may be distance control on feel shots from about 60 yards in. The bigger feel difference to me is the Rifle vs. the TT shaft...

[Lemay427]

when i say effecting the swing i didnt mean the heads do, i meant that you can sometimes get some feedback with your swing if you have a club that isnt as forgiving. my shafts were fitted for my swing as well.

[GoFlyers]

If you are trying to talk yourself into / justify a new set of forged irons... I would go with the added feel on the touch shots...
There are some bad cast heads out there but your are not talking about those. You are talking about a nice set of TM's. I like the MP's better because they are forged and I am a Miz fan... but that is a personal prefence. I also know that last year I lost a match to a guy playing RAC's... I hate when that happens. The bigger diference in the two sets of clubs is the sole width. The TM's and wider then the MP's. You may want to look at that more so then if they are forged or cast.
Either way... it is really hard to go wrong.

[beung]

Well I would say that feedback isn't felt until you actually hit the ball so the only thing that clubs that give better feedback will do is help you to learn what a certain shot feels like.

I also play RAC LTs and I am about the same handicap is you. I would say that the clubs give little feedback bacause there is so much forgiveness built into them that a really good shot doesn't feel much different then an ok or even a good bad shot. You would have to hit a pretty bad shot to really feel the difference in the shot if you couldn't see the shot outcome. I too am looking to upgrade my clubs but I will say that the riflle 6.0 are a great shaft.

At my current platue in my game I would say the change in irons isn't really going to lower my srokes. Improved shortgame, putting and better decisions should get me down to 5-6 but I will tell you that there were rounds last year that I was on route to being 2-3 over but when it came down to an important shot I had no confidence in my irons which resulted in me limping along waiting for the 18th hole to come before I had more oppertunities to damage my score. Anytime I break 80 I know I gave some strokes away because I had uncertaincy in what my iron shot was going to do. Confidence plays a big part of how the shot turns out and if you don't have it on your equipement then you can't put a good stroke on the ball.

So I think a club that gives good feed back will improve your game at a mid to lower handicap. I spend alot of time at the range working on shots and no I don't have the prefect repeatable swing but there is alot to be said when you can feel a bad shot and not just see that it went 10 yrd shorter or went way farther left then the last 3-4 shots you just hit.

I tried the MP-32 and the 67 and for some reason I hit the 67 better then the 32s. I did try the 60s but they didn't feel that much different then my LTs.

[Lemay427]

ya distance control seems to be my main concern at this point.

[iacas]

Before I get any further, please, visit any of these threads for a discussion. We've had this discussion before (as recently as last week):

http://thesandtrap.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1358 http://thesandtrap.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4402 http://thesandtrap.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2412

Helped there game... naw, that isn't going to happen. A shaft that fits your swing will have a ton more effect then the difference in forged/cast.

Gotta disagree there, particularly if you're talking about using the same shafts or similar shafts in completely different sets of irons (heads).

I have swung some cast clubs that I didn't like the feel of but I think it would be a strech to say that could effect my swing.

I think your analysis of this discussion is a little shallow. Please see the other threads for more.

I can't - and won't - play a cavity-back/game-improvement club because they tend to lead to the decline of my swing. I need the reinforcement and feedback a forged/muscleback provides. I can easily tell the difference.

I would say that the clubs give little feedback bacause there is so much forgiveness built into them that a really good shot doesn't feel much different then an ok or even a good bad shot.

Exactly. And if you're like me, you don't enjoy that "everything feels the same" feeling and you want more feedback so you can improve.

But again, people: http://thesandtrap.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1358 http://thesandtrap.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4402 http://thesandtrap.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2412

[GoFlyers]

iacas,

First off I am new here (and not looking to get banned) and by looking at your sig line and number of post… I am guessing this is your site. So, I am not trying to piss you off but…
The truth of the matter is that in the online world people get their rocks off by being Pro V1 / Forged Iron / Advice Giving – golf snobs. Now understand, I play KZG forged irons with Rifle Project X shafts and am a member of a club… so I am all those things but I never think that because I prefer forged over cast that everyone else should.
I also KNOW that what is going on between a person ears is a thousand times more important then what is at the end of his shaft. I also KNOW that the physics part of the contact between the ball and two identical shaped clubheads one being cast with a hardness of 241 brinell and the other being forged with a hardness of 241 brinell will have a equal vibration from an off center contact.
30 years ago manufacturing a casting resulted in the end product having air pockets while a forged product, because the process involved ‘hammering’ out the air pockets was much more solid. 30 years ago a cast piece of steel 1x1x1 weighed less then a forged piece of steel 1x1x1. With the technology increases in the past 30 years these gaps are just about all but obsolete.
Today you have many clubheads of the same shape processed both ways. There are cast blades and there are forged cavity backs… so even tho you may think it is shallow I KNOW that just because there are previous post stating the contrary… they are factually incorrect.
The reason people feel the way they do goes back to what is between there ears. When you look down are you confident that you have the correct tool in your hand for the job? I will agree that the shape of the heads have a huge impact on how the club ‘feels’ on different hits as does type of material (various stainless steels, low carbon steel, and alloy steel) and hardness of the material… but it is shape/grade/hardness related NOT metal processing related (cast/forged).

I can go on and list a couple dozen more points but I just want to mention one last point. You mention a decline in your swing because of lack of feedback from the club. Couldn’t that be fixed as easily as using a simple impact aid while at the practice range? I have forged clubs and still use an impact aid because I want to know exactly where I contact every shot.

I do not mean to be argumentative here and I absolutely do not want you to back off with any future challenges… I just had to defend myself against your rebuttal…

[Toad]

Interesting discussion thus far.

I would like to add something...specificly about 'feel'. I currently play a set of Mizuno MP-60's. With these irons back to my first set of blades (MP-14's back when I could play)...I can honestly say the reason I gave up cast clubs is the feel at impact.

Now I will readily admit...the last set of cast clubs I played were a set of copper Zing's...which I thought were the cats meow at the time. I understand alot probably has changed in cast vs. forged since those days. I also admit I dont have any experience with modern cast clubs. I am a Mizuno man and see no need to change at this point.

Still though...with a forged iron...I can hit a shot and instantly KNOW what its going to do based on that feeling at impact. I honestly can tell you if I pulled off the fade or if I fanned it or hit it high or low etc JUST by the feel at impact and not looking at the shot at all. I believe this feedback has been VERY beneficial to my development as a player. I know very well where I am hitting the ball on the club face.

I can feel without question when I am swinging well. The latest example of this was just the other day. I snuck out before work for a quick nine. I hit a few balls on the range at the club before getting out. A few wedges, a few 8 irons, a few 5 irons then I hit 3 3irons (number 1 is a 3 iron tee for me). That morning I hit everything pretty good. My wedges were good...the 8 and 5 were solid but a wee bit thin and low...the 3 irons...each one of them were absolutely nutted. All three were that gushy soft mushy explode off the face, cant even hear the ball impact sweetness that only seems to occur on forged clubs. I knew right there on the first 3 iron we were in the zone...the 2nd and third were just cause it felt good. My iron play all round was astoundingly good...and fortunately for me I made some putts. I shot a 32 that front nine. For a 7/8 handicap thats pretty damn good.

Reading this you may think I am making a case for forged over cast. That is not my intention. I think GoFlyers nailed it when he said "I also KNOW that what is going on between a person ears is a thousand times more important then what is at the end of his shaft." Those 3 iron shots on the range set the tone for that round. I have spent ALOT of time blowing the rust off my game from a 4 year layoff. I spent quite a bit of money and time to get what is in my mind the ultimate set of irons for me (still working on the woods =)). It all came together...I felt that 'click' and in my mind I was unstoppable.

In summation...play what you like. Play what gives you confidence. Play what gives you the results you are after. Golf IS a mental game...of course their are physical aspects to it...but the heart of this game is between your ears. The question I ALWAYS ask myself, in regards to equipment or most anything else is "How does it feel?". If it feels right...it gives me confidence. When I have confidence I feel that click...when I feel that click I am going to play VERY well.

[iacas]

I never think that because I prefer forged over cast that everyone else should.

Nobody here is behaving in that way.

I also KNOW that what is going on between a person ears is a thousand times more important then what is at the end of his shaft.

A thousand may be overstating it, and factoring in mental issues in yet another "cavity versus forged" isn't really on topic.

I also KNOW that the physics part of the contact between the ball and two identical shaped clubheads one being cast with a hardness of 241 brinell and the other being forged with a hardness of 241 brinell will have a equal vibration from an off center contact.

The bigger picture is that we're looking at "muscleback" or "players" irons versus "game improvement" irons. The latter tend to be cavity back, the former forged.

You'll get no argument from me here that an identically built club feels pretty much exactly the same whether it's cast or forged, but this debate goes beyond that.

There are cast blades and there are forged cavity backs… so even tho you may think it is shallow I KNOW that just because there are previous post stating the contrary… they are factually incorrect.

They're not factually incorrect. Nobody has said "all cavity backs are cast" (or the opposite). Had they, I'd be right there with you. Hell, Titleist has a few forged cavity backs.

But that's the subtle nature of this discussion. It's not a question of simply "should I get this clubhead in forged or cast." If that were the question, the answer should be "get whichever is cheaper because they'll behave the same."

I can go on and list a couple dozen more points but I just want to mention one last point. You mention a decline in your swing because of lack of feedback from the club. Couldn’t that be fixed as easily as using a simple impact aid while at the practice range?

No, it could not. You don't really seem to grasp what I was saying, nor the psychology. If I mis-hit a shot 5% with a forged players club, I know it but don't pay much of a penalty. If I mis-hit a shot 10% with a game-improvement club, I might not notice and I might not pay any penalty. It'd feel and behave the same - or very close to the same - as a perfect shot.

So, an "impact aid" (I still don't know what you mean by that - impact tape? an impact bag? what?) is only somewhat helpful, and certainly only helpful in practice. Much of golf requires in-round adjustments of a very subtle nature, and many of the golf shots you hit in a round can't be replicated on the range.

Still though...with a forged iron...I can hit a shot and instantly KNOW what its going to do based on that feeling at impact. I honestly can tell you if I pulled off the fade or if I fanned it or hit it high or low etc JUST by the feel at impact and not looking at the shot at all. I believe this feedback has been VERY beneficial to my development as a player. I know very well where I am hitting the ball on the club face.

Correct. I feel the same way. Replace "forged" with "players" (some Mizunos have a tiny cavity back, but they're not exactly game-improvement clubs either) and I think you're spot on.

I'll conclude by saying this: the original poster is not just contemplating a switch from cast to forged. He is, as I hinted at earlier, contemplating a switch from "game improvement" to "players" irons which, again, is often where the line between cast and forged is drawn. So I think the title of the thread may be misleading people a bit. Cast and forged, there's really very little difference these days. Cast came about to create some of the crazy GI shapes we've seen, and forged is still very cost effective for simpler clubheads seen in "players" irons. Again, I encourage you to pick up some of the other threads I'll list again, as they already contain this debate: http://thesandtrap.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1358 http://thesandtrap.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4402 http://thesandtrap.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2412

[NM Golf]

This topic has been beat to death on this forum but for good reason everyone has their own opinion. Golf is played between the ears. If you think you play better because you play forged blades because they "force" you to hit the ball in the center of the club head, then you probably do play better because of them. Golf is mental. I play against some very good players. The irons they use are from forged blades to extreme game improvement. I know a +1 handicap who is a hell of a player that plays Nike slingshot irons. He himself is not into worrying about whether he is hitting it solidly or not, he only worries about where its going. He wants his off center shots to go as straight as possible. That works for him. The forged blade guys I know are more technical they are seemingly always tinkering with their swings, that works for them. I, myself am more in the middle. I like a little feedback so I know where I am hitting it but I know I will mishit the ball several times a round and I need some forgiveness so those mishits don't cost me too much. So basically you have to figure out for yourself what type of player you are, and go from there.