LPGA to require English proficiency

[gbk56]

The pro-ams are a HUGE deal. And you're right--let's address it more comprehensively. In addition to language and personableness, there's basic manners. On the PGA Tour especially, a lot of those guys ignore their teammates and spend the entire round practicing putts. (Makes their caddies insane--they know what the pros' job is out there.) Let's ban that. In fact, let's just define what how we want a pro to behave in a pro-am and require it of everyone.

This is my exact point. If it is really a pro-am issue why haven't they defined pro am conduct and applied it to all tour players?

[Smallville]

Your opinion is incorrect. Read title VII

I didin't know they are "employees", I always consider them basically, private contractors . . . .they play for prize money from the LPGA, not a salary. They get their salaries from sponsors. They apply for MEMBERSHIP. So, I stand by what I said before. And anyway, it's not where they are from that's the issue, it's that they can't speak English that is the issue. That has nothing to do with where they are born. PLENTY of foreign countries have english language as part of their curriculum, so they should have at least been exposed to it a long time ago.

[iacas]

Title VII of the 1964 Civil Rights Act prohibits employment discrimination on the basis of race, color, religion, sex, or national origin.

They're not employed by the LPGA Tour. They're members - and willing members, at that.

Oooops, Small beat me to it.

I didin't know they are "employees", I always consider them basically, private contractors . . . .they play for prize money from the LPGA, not a salary. They get their salaries from sponsors. They apply for MEMBERSHIP.

[shredfit]

I didin't know they are "employees", I always consider them basically, private contractors . . . .they play for prize money from the LPGA, not a salary. They get their salaries from sponsors. They apply for MEMBERSHIP. So, I stand by what I said before. And anyway, it's not where they are from that's the issue, it's that they can't speak English that is the issue. That has nothing to do with where they are born. PLENTY of foreign countries have english language as part of their curriculum, so they should have at least been exposed to it a long time ago.

Interesting... Some valid questions are: Can the "private contractor" play any event as long as they are placed high enough in world or American standings? Are they forced to be LPGA members to play certain events? Private contractors typically have at least some independence from the contractee. Is that the case here? I personally feel it's a bad long term move for the LPGA to require the testing. If the LPGA wants to grow as an enterprise they should be thinking GLOBAL. This would not only be good for the LPGA but good for golf.

[Smallville]

Can the "private contractor" play any event as long as they are placed high enough in world or American standings? Are they forced to be LPGA members to play certain events? Private contractors typically have at least some independence from the contractee. Is that the case here?

I didn't say they WERE private contractors, I said that I CONSIDERED them to be private contractors, for a simple definition. You may want to contact the LPGA on what they consider the members of the tour to be. Contrary to popular belief, I don't have any say in LPGA matters and how they define the members of the tour. At any rate, they basically requested to be part of this elite group of people (yes, I consider a tour pro to be part of an elite group - - -not elitist, but elite). The LPGA didn't go out and recruit them in. So if they want to be in this group, then in my opinion, they gotta play under the rules that organization decides they want to have. And they can change the rule mid-stream if they want to. . . it's a PRIVATE group.

[shredfit]

I didn't say they WERE private contractors, I said that I CONSIDERED them to be private contractors, for a simple definition. You may want to contact the LPGA on what they consider the members of the tour to be. Contrary to popular belief, I don't have any say in LPGA matters and how they define the members of the tour. At any rate, they basically requested to be part of this elite group of people (yes, I consider a tour pro to be part of an elite group - - -not elitist, but elite). The LPGA didn't go out and recruit them in. So if they want to be in this group, then in my opinion, they gotta play under the rules that organization decides they want to have. And they can change the rule mid-stream if they want to. . . it's a PRIVATE group.

I guess what I'm saying is that the LPGA players are likely not like "private contractors". In they have little, to none of the advatages associated by being private(ie independence).

Perhaps a better analogy would be the LPGA is not unlike an employment agency. Whereas, the LPGA is the middleman in setting up and getting sponsors for tournaments. The LPGA players are then "employed" to play the tourney. As far as I know, "membership" to an employment agency is required for consideration for any position offered by the agency. Therefore, the agency is/can be subject to the same crimminal discrimination laws as any other agency/employer. I don't know if the LPGA players consider winnings their earnings on their tax forms as there are substantial tax differences. (I suspect, their winnings are considered Professional earnings). Holy crap, I'm beginning to sound like the attorney I golf with...

[ClairefromClare]

They're self-employed. Receive 1099s and report earnings on schedule C. Pay own employment taxes. Can set up own retirement plans, hire employees (i.e.., a permanent caddy), etc.

How long have we golfed together?

[dragonflyin]

LPGA ought to feel ashamed to place foreign players in such a predicament. I have no issues in fostering English proficiency in its players. After all, LPGA is a U.S. dominant tour, and the ability to converse properly with playing partners and the media is important for business. However, challenge the playing status via suspension because of a language barrier is stepping over the boundary of the LPGA and stepping all over the civil rights of players. It should have taken a softer approach without making the mandate of possible suspension.

If LPGA were just to come out and state that sports at the end of the day were really only about business, then perhaps they should start first at excluding all ugly players on tour. I think that brings down viewership and sponsorship a LOT more than Korean players that can't speak English.

Also, execution of this mandate is done so poorly. How can the LPGA state that it is not directed at any one nation group when they first brought up this new rule at a South Korean player's meeting? Of the foreign players, especially ones that dominant the tour, 40+ are Korean. I understand the underlying intent, but it is just so poor from every angle.

[shredfit]

They're self-employed. Receive 1099s and report earnings on schedule C. Pay own employment taxes. Can set up own retirement plans, hire employees (i.e.., a permanent caddy), etc.

That's what I thought. Then, the players are still required to be members of an outside agency(the LPGA) to employ themselves. Again this sounds real synonymous with an employment agency or booking agency, both of which are still subject to discrimination laws(no matter how "private" or exclusive the agencies claim to be...).

We have golfed together for years!

[PEZGolf]

That's what I thought. Then, the players are still required to be members of an outside agency(the LPGA) to employ themselves. Again this sounds real synonymous with an employment agency or booking agency, both of which are still subject to discrimination laws(no matter how "private" or exclusive the agencies claim to be...).

I do not believe that any of the Federal laws against discrimination specify that an employer cannot require a particular language as a condition of employment. I am sure that is not the case since employers do it all the time. You cannot work for a bank as a teller if you can speak only another language and the bank has a customer base that speaks English. The same applies for other types of industries. Therefore, the LPGA can make a condition for membership that a member be able to meet an English language requirement. If Se Ri Pak and other South Koreans do not have a problem with this requirement, then why should any of us, who are NOT members of the LPGA, even argue about it?

[ClairefromClare]

I do not believe that any of the Federal laws against discrimination specify that an employer cannot require a particular language as a condition of employment. I am sure that is not the case since employers do it all the time. You cannot work for a bank as a teller if you can speak only another language and the bank has a customer base that speaks English. The same applies for other types of industries. Therefore, the LPGA can make a condition for membership that a member be able to meet an English language requirement.

An employer cannot have a requirement with a disparate impact on a protected class unless the employer demonstrates it is necessary for the job. For instance, if the LPGA were to require that all players have blond hair, that rule would have a disparate impact (greater negative effect) on non-caucasions. So member of minority groups could complain. The LPGA would then have to demonstrate that being blond was a necessary component of the job. If it could not do so, the requirement could be struck down.

So--because (non-U.S.) national origin is a protected class of people, and the language requirement has a disparate impact on those folks, the LPGA will have to show that reasonable English fluency (or whatever their technical standard is in there) is a necessary job requirement. This will be an interesting show.

[ganjagolfer]

I guess Moses Malone should have been suspended from the NBA too. I was a die hard Sixers fans but I never had a clue what he was saying.

boo weekly is one of my favorites, hopefully the pga won't pass a similar rule

[shredfit]

I do not believe that any of the Federal laws against discrimination specify that an employer cannot require a particular language as a condition of employment. I am sure that is not the case since employers do it all the time. You cannot work for a bank as a teller if you can speak only another language and the bank has a customer base that speaks English. The same applies for other types of industries. Therefore, the LPGA can make a condition for membership that a member be able to meet an English language requirement.

ClairefromClare sort of beat me to it, but I'd like to add one more thing... From what I've read, the LPGA seems the have targeted one particular group or class(ie the Koreans) for the English fluency mandate. (ie The mandate was announced at a meeting for this group)

This establishes reasonable speculation that a particular group/class/minority has been targeted for discrimination... again clearly not legal. It will however, be interesting to see how this all plays out.

[NM Golf]

Did you even bother to look at the LPGA ratings before you babbled this? You are WAY OFF BASE. First, the LPGA television ratings have sucked for years. In fact, the ratings for the women's U.S. Open in 2007 drew a 1.4. This also happened to represent a 34 percent increase over ratings from 2003indicating that the ratings were PUTRID before then.

In your infinite wisdom do you think:

1. The LPGA can exist without a need for the American audience. 2. That the television ratings increase from 2003 is because of all these great korean players. Obviously you do, either that or you cannot convey your thoughts clearly. The foreign market is great for the LPGA but the A in LPGA stands for America. They can't make it without the backing of the US. They went global to help bring in bigger numbers not because they no longer needed the US audience. The ratings for LPGA events are dismal but are at a increase because of the influx of the good new American players since 2003 like Creamer, Pressel, Gulbis, and even International superstars coming into their own like Ochoa. Now, understandably so, the LPGA fears that they are again going in the wrong direction because the talent that got their ratings increase back then is quickly being replaced by Koreans. And let me assure you, no amount of japanese or any foreign audience is going to replace what will be lost by a bored American audience. It was said earlier the difference in ratings between the Nabisco when two english speaking superstars went head to head, and the Womens British when all the Koreans lead. You can put whetever spin on it that you want but the LPGA's actions speak the loudest. They want and need the American audience, they cannot be a successful tour without it. They realize that the Korean players will not be able to pull that off the way things are now. They have to do one of two things, get rid of a few of them, or make them more fun to watch. The new policy will hopefully do that.

[NM Golf]

how can we make it a requirement for foreign born players to speak good english when our president can't even do it?

english was spoken by the most ruthless imperialists the world has known. i imagine in a kinder and more compassionate world, it will be forbidden to speak english out of respect to all those who have suffered so from those speaking this language.

boo weekly is one of my favorites, hopefully the pga won't pass a similar rule

Thanks again for all the ridiculous comments, If you don't have anything useful to say please say nothing at all.

[golf_junkie27]

In your infinite wisdom do you think:

1. In my "infinite wisdom," I decided I would do the smart thing and obtain this information directly from the LPGA. They have credited the Koreans with creating an impact in foreign markets previously not seen. 2. I spent twelve years in the television business. Two major resources of revenue are affiliate sales and syndication rights. By being in 135 million homes and 40 countries, this has enabled US Television companies to charge higher subscription rates for the signal and higher syndication fees for programming. You can't argue this but I'm sure you will. 3. You want to compare a .08 with a .04. Well, one tournament was on US soil and the other was in Britian. Let's take into consideration that there is this thing called time differential. If you don't normally watch the LPGA or it's not classified as "must see", then why would anyone wake up, earlier, to watch it? 4. I don't disagree that the US Market is important. However, the LPGA, like the WNBA, has a niche market. Look at those figures, which I did, and you will see how they are doing considerably better than before. In many ways, the LPGA is contradicting themselves. Saying and pointing to figures while making people believe that English is what's seperating them from exploding. That's just not the case. You can believe that though but you won't get any support. Look at the ratings, numbers and money prior to 1997: IT WAS AWFUL compared to today. The LPGA, themselves, gives credit to the rise of foreign players. You can argue with them and tell them they're wrong. In closing, sure, I would love for everyone to speak a common language, in this case, English. I just don't like the appearance they give when figures they provide don't support it.

[PEZGolf]

An employer cannot have a requirement with a disparate impact on a protected class unless the employer demonstrates it is necessary for the job. For instance, if the LPGA were to require that all players have blond hair, that rule would have a disparate impact (greater negative effect) on non-caucasions. So member of minority groups could complain. The LPGA would then have to demonstrate that being blond was a necessary component of the job. If it could not do so, the requirement could be struck down.

If the LPGA wants to hire me as a legal consutant, WE can win any case, but if the South Koreans accept the policy, and no one else objects, there will be no case to be decided. The Policy on English will simply go into effect, and all of our lives will go on as before, except that we can communicate with the 45 South Koreans on the LPGA Tour without an interpreter serving as a go between. As they continue to pile up victory after victory, this will be a good thing.

[NM Golf]

1. You can believe that though but you won't get any support. Look at the ratings, numbers and money prior to 1997: IT WAS AWFUL compared to today. The LPGA, themselves, gives credit to the rise of foreign players. You can argue with them and tell them they're wrong.

All Korean players are foreign players but not all foreign players are Korean players. I have to believe the international players the LPGA cites as helping expand the tour were able to communicate. The major one being one Annika Sorenstam. Otherwise, this rule would be unnecessary.

We can do this all day but again the LPGA's actions in this matter speak for themselves. Something is wrong within the LPGA, it has to do with the Korean players inability to communicate, and its financially driven. You do the math.