Swing plane insanity

[Williamevanl]

So thanks to the guys at swingacademy.com I figured out months ago that my swing is off plane and over the top. When I first saw it on camera in slow motion I realized how far off plane I actually was. At the time I figured it wouldn't be to hard to fix and I tried to bring my swing back on plane. The problem is I can't seem to do it.

I watch my video side by side with tiger on S.A and I try to mimic the same move at the top but for whatever reason I just can't get the club on the right path. In the video of tiger he is swinging perfectly on plane at about 45degrees around his spine.

Anyway here is a link of my swing, I know I come in to much inside and then get out to in, if I deliberately try to start my backswing on plane I go to far outside and end up in worse shape. So my question is how do I get into this slot and whats the talk about dropping your hands mean?

http://www.swingacademy.com//SwingAn...l.aspx?id=1740

Note, in order to be even close to on plane in this, I cut my back swing well short of paralell and slowed everything down.

[Mr.Wedge]

You may be putting the cart before the horse. I know this is contrary to what many folks teach, but if you attempt to build your swing by manipulating the club into a predetermined position, you are potentially creating a very long and frustrating road for yourself. The tendency will be to accentuate your swing with the small muscles of the hands and arms, not to mention powering your swing with same. On the other hand, if you build your swing with known core fudamentals, the plane will pretty much take care of itself. I say "pretty much" because as you progress, OBSERVING your plane will be a good check to determine if the fundamentals are in sync, and adjustments can be made accordingly. Lecture over....

Here are specific fundamental issues I see with your swing:

Setup...too erect, little knee flex, and a bit on your heels? Flex those knees, kick them in toward each other to get the weight on the insides of the feet, and bend at the hips. Feel your weight balanced on the balls and heels of your feet. If you err, err toward the balls and not the heels. The insides of the legs control your swing if you key them properly.

Right leg straightening...early in the back swing. I suspect a frontal view would show a bit of a reverse pivot. Unless you are attempting S&T, this is causing most of your downswing problems and getting you out of sequence. The weight should remain on the inside of the right foot at the top and the right knee should maintain the same flex as at address. Keep it kicked in a tad and feel as if you are "sitting down" on the inside of the right hip at the top.

Early extension...which simple is moving your body toward the ball coming down causing you to lose your spine angle and "get stuck" behind the ball. This is partly due to being on the heels and the natural tendency then is to seek balance by moving to your toes on the down. A good way to control this is to roll the hips more under the spine at address which serves to straighten the lower back and engage the quads for better stability. Exercises which focus on the hips and quads help as well.

This is just my opinion...if you work on these areas, the plane will be much better having done nothing consciously to change it.

[Williamevanl]

Yea you make a really good point. I guess thats like thinking that if I could copy the exact movement of say nolan ryan's body and arms I could throw a 100 mph strike.

I hit about 120 balls today with the things you mentioned in mind. I have been focused so hard lately on swingplane that every other aspect of my swing has gone to #@$@. It felt kind of funny to put my weight on the inside of my feet and actually started to hurt after 100 shots or so. It seemed like I was putting less spin on the ball 'driver' but I still have a crazy pull. I try to push the ball and it still gets pulled.

Can you explain what you meant about hands getting trapped behind the body because I think thats a big part of the problem, especially with my wedges and driver.

[mm6840]

Hi if you try to learn/practice one plane swing ... you shouldn't have hands so much ahead of a body (ref. Jim Hardy) with backswing... and yours shoulder turn isn't complete/sufficent for one plane. All together : one plane swing is swing/pivoting around the spine. Tiger irons is one plane .. Tiger driwver is hybrid 1/2 plane

regards,

[Mr.Wedge]

It felt kind of funny to put my weight on the inside of my feet and actually started to hurt after 100 shots or so. It seemed like I was putting less spin on the ball 'driver' but I still have a crazy pull. I try to push the ball and it still gets pulled.

You'll get past the pain. It is the downward compression of the coil which causes it and the reason so many resist it by straightening the leg or by swaying. Learn to "love" that discomfort because it is what creates ease of power; accept the pain on the front end and release will be a joy.

Can you explain what you meant about hands getting trapped behind the body because I think thats a big part of the problem, especially with my wedges and driver

The attached pics may help (I'm a noob with this computer stuff, so kinda crude). See how your butt moves toward the ball at impact? Note the spine angle, how you straighten up as compared to your address position. Also look at how much you are on your toes at impact. In order to reach the ball you have to raise up that way which forces the club to an outside path. Moving toward the ball like that "crowds" your arms if that makes sense, which makes for an early release and poor extention downrange. If you maintain your angles and levels, you can freely swing your arms back to the ball on plane with good extension.

This is a balance issue which begins at address. Flex the knees more than what you may think they should be, roll the hips under the spine, and get balanced on the balls and heels. I would suggest continuing with 1/2 to 3/4 swings with your favorite short iron in order to learn these new feels. If you keep that right knee flexed and on the inside of that foot you may be amazed at how crisply you hit the ball even with a short swing.

[wachesawgolfer]

Right on the money about swing plane, there is way too much emphasis on it and if you attempt to swing on a certain plane you will be working way too much on this. Simply coil back using the core chest muscles, not the shoulder muscles. As Jim Hardy reveals so well we can turn our shoulders at least 45 degrees WITHOUT turning our chest at all. When we just turn our shoulders, we need to lift our arms and now we are off plane. If we use our core muscles, ie., turn our shirt logo over our rear foot and simply let the right arm fold with the elbow down and have a soft but nice extension in the left arm, we are on our plane, whatever that may be for our size and flexibility. All Jim Hardy's one plane swing really does is give such an exaggerated setup, one can only make the proper upper body turn and eliminates the arms only swing which is steep and off plane. Just turn your chest as far as it wants to and then let the downswing occur through a unwinding of the lower body. This should shorten your swing and give you less moving parts which is what all the tour pros are attempting to do.

[Mr.Wedge]

Right on the money about swing plane, there is way too much emphasis on it and if you attempt to swing on a certain plane you will be working way too much on this. Simply coil back using the core chest muscles, not the shoulder muscles. As Jim Hardy reveals so well we can turn our shoulders at least 45 degrees WITHOUT turning our chest at all. When we just turn our shoulders, we need to lift our arms and now we are off plane. If we use our core muscles, ie., turn our shirt logo over our rear foot and simply let the right arm fold with the elbow down and have a soft but nice extension in the left arm, we are on our plane, whatever that may be for our size and flexibility. All Jim Hardy's one plane swing really does is give such an exaggerated setup, one can only make the proper upper body turn and eliminates the arms only swing which is steep and off plane. Just turn your chest as far as it wants to and then let the downswing occur through a unwinding of the lower body. This should shorten your swing and give you less moving parts which is what all the tour pros are attempting to do.

Nice to hear some concurrence. I sometimes feel like the lone ranger on this.

Regarding shoulders, a definition may be in order because it is a misunderstood term. Shoulder actually refers to the large shoulder area of the upper torso and not the singular joint of the arm and collar bones. All the large muscles including the pecs and lats converge around the arm pits, so I glue the arm pits (as opposed to squeeze), feel as though I am engaging the lats, and let er rip. I think this accomplishes what you refer to as coiling wth the core, which may be felt in many different ways. Gluing the armpits provides what I refer to as shoulder leverage reducing the role of the arms to simply maintain relative position throughout the swing. OP can use these thoughts, but I figure he'd do best by getting the legs working properly first...nothing like too much info to freeze the brain.

[wachesawgolfer]

Nice to hear some concurrence. I sometimes feel like the lone ranger on this.

The failure of most golf instruction, I think, is the inability of the instruction, whether its a video, books or one on one, to instill in the student the correct turn back and sequence of the turn. It is the lack of repeatability of the turn back that causes the inconsistent shots from arms being disconnected from the body. I think players have to study and try different muscle groups to make the move back until they can find the right muscles which turn the chest and arms in one piece fully to the top while allowing a stable spine angle and absolutely no arm or hand involvement other than just to attach the club to the body. Once, the backmove is mastered, the forward move from the ground up, is natural and powerful

[kfowler]

Your swing and mine looked very similar at one point. My instructor and I have been working on "over-the-top" for the last nine months. It's been a very frustrating process to me. My issue was I still couldn't "feel" on a consistent basis what it felt like to come from the inside. Finally last month my instructor gave me a drill that really clicked with me. It's made a HUGE difference in my swing. To give you an example I hit 71% of my fairways this week on a 9-hole round. Even the two I missed were not bad drives. So here's a fellow over-the-topper's analysis of your swing.

1.) Your camera angle is a little high but it appears you're coming way to the inside and flat. When you get to the top of your backswing look how your arm and shoulder is pointing way out in front of the ball. I used to do this exact same thing thinking it would cause me to come down on plane. The problem is you typically do the opposite on your downswing then what you did on your backswing. When you take the club back, try to keep the housel pointed at an imaginary line going back from your ball. When your wrists hing, the butt of the club should be pointing at the line now. If you really want to check this, take an old club and stick a laster pointer in the butt. It really works well and will give you an idea of where you're at. I think you'll find that you have to keep your hands much further out than you thought to come back on plane.

2.) So here's the eureka! drill for me to use on your downswing. When addressing the ball, imagine a clock face where the ball is the center of the clock and your target is 9 o'clock and behind the ball is 3 o'clock. Place a small object (I use the extra rubber tees at the driving range) at 10 o'clock and 4 o'clock about a short irons distance from your ball. Bring the club back on plane. When you start your downswing, try to bring the club inside the 4 o'clock marker and then outside the 10 o'clock marker. You'll probably be manipulating the club too much with your hands at first but the idea is learn what it "feels" like to come from the inside. I find it easier to do this with the driver because of the length and the ball being teed up. Trying hitting some balls without hitting any where they start out left. Don't worry if they slice. You want it to go straight or a push.

If you're anything like me, you may start seeing a lot of straight/slice and push/slice. Your drivers will be more slice while your irons will be more push. The reason this happened to me was that I had played so long with an over-the-top swing that in order to square the face at the ball I had to delay the rotation of my hands. It's really a subconscious thing. You could see this in my swing because when the club was pointing at the target on the follow through the face was wide open. If this happens to you, you're going to have to relearn your timing for rotating your hands.

Anyway, this is what worked for me. Best of luck to you.

[wachesawgolfer]

Your swing and mine looked very similar at one point. My instructor and I have been working on "over-the-top" for the last nine months. It's been a very frustrating process to me. My issue was I still couldn't "feel" on a consistent basis what it felt like to come from the inside. Finally last month my instructor gave me a drill that really clicked with me. It's made a HUGE difference in my swing. To give you an example I hit 71% of my fairways this week on a 9-hole round. Even the two I missed were not bad drives. So here's a fellow over-the-topper's analysis of your swing.

When I read posts like this I want to scream in agony. Nine months with this instructor to rid your over the top move? Your instructor cannot see your using your arms and not turning your core in the backswing which makes you 1) diconnected 2) uncoiled 3) offplane and 4) forced to use your arms to bring the club down.

Just take a club and hold it out in front of you and turn your chest back and through with no arms. The club swing inside to inside on a circle, it is physically impossible using you body to come over the top. Simply take the club back with a chest turn against your lower body and the lower body will lead the downswing. Best thing for feel is to chop a tree. Note if you use your arms you have no power or accuracy. You will instinctively take the axe back with your chest and use the lower body to power through. We ALL have done this. It is easy, easy for anyone. Use a rubber hammer or whatever, but feel the body working. This is why the throwing the club drill works so well. If we take the club back to throw it down the range and use our weak armsy takeaway with no core coil the club goes hard left and high for very little distance. The subconscious quickly realizes the only way to throw the club on line powerfully is to turn the upper body back with no arms at all and then power the lower body through. Just like throwing a discus. The only role of the arms in this and chopping a tree is to attach the club to the body. A great easy drill is to take a good golf posture, spine straight and head in line with spine bending at the hips and put your hands down as if holding a club but reverse them so the backs of the hands meet. Turn your chest back. Note the reversed hands causes the right arm to fold properly with the left arm correctly extended turn against the coil. Now the only way to swing down is with the unwinding of the body and the right hand PREVENTS the left arm from unhinging at the top and you can and will complete a powerful turn forward to a full finish. You can add a light club with your right hand again under the grip similarly reversed to lock out the left arm unhinging to feel the correct body turn back and through. Once you got the feel you can pracrtice it all the time like Hogan did. Simply hit ball with the thumb and forefinger of the right hand off the club throughout the swing. Good luck!

[kfowler]

I think you have to realize that I played golf (badly I might add) for over 20 years with an over the top swing. No instruction. You don't just drop those bad habits in a short period of time. I found that often what I felt like I was doing was not what I was really doing. I also found that I could grasp a concept while working with an instructor but would have difficulty maintaining this away from my lessons. Old habits would creep in very quickly.

I'm aware of both of the drills you mentioned and have used them before. Problem is, for me anyway, is there is a major psychological difference between a performing a drill or practice swing and standing over the ball. I especially discovered this while trying to fix my casting issue. I could create lag all day if I was not standing over the ball. Try and actually hit one was a different matter.

All that being said I do appreciate the feedback.

[wachesawgolfer]

Kevin, remember always the most critical part of the golf swing is the first few inches back. This sets the tempo and determines whether you arms lift or swing back. You have heard a million times get a swing starter like a forward press and waggle the club, all in a consistant routine. There is far more truth to these ideas than the slicer/caster realizes. Work on those first few inches...

[Petden]

One thing I would like to mention after watching the video, is as you start your downswing it appears you reach out for the ball and start to force instantly instead of gradually increasing your speed. The over extending and that instantaneous force would cause you to leave the face open on impact; unless you realize that it is open and close the face too fast, which again would cause you to pull it in the opposite direction.

[Mr.Wedge]

Kevin, remember always the most critical part of the golf swing is the first few inches back. This sets the tempo and determines whether you arms lift or swing back. You have heard a million times get a swing starter like a forward press and waggle the club, all in a consistant routine. There is far more truth to these ideas than the slicer/caster realizes. Work on those first few inches...

Very good advice. If I may add, it goes back to address position, which facilitates being able to make that initial move, and mental concept is prerequisite to that.

[jambalaya]

When I read posts like this I want to scream in agony. Nine months with this instructor to rid your over the top move? Your instructor cannot see your using your arms and not turning your core in the backswing which makes you 1) diconnected 2) uncoiled 3) offplane and 4) forced to use your arms to bring the club down.

whaaaaat!? Have you got double jointed elbows? I have been following this discussion with great interest. I have been having swing plane and over the top insanity as of late leading to some hellishly bad ball striking. Connectivity is elusive, coil and hip-shoulder turn sequence out of sequence. Hell, everything was a mess. I did something in my last round that I am not sure contradicts you and wedge or agrees with it. About your second drill. When you say reverse your hands, I am turning them in with the pinkies at the top instead of the thumbs and back of the hands together, arms still hanging down. I just tried this in my office. Just how do you get your right arm to fold at all when you turn your chest?

[jambalaya]

Right on the money about swing plane, there is way too much emphasis on it and if you attempt to swing on a certain plane you will be working way too much on this. Simply coil back using the core chest muscles, not the shoulder muscles.

Good explanation. Never really grasped it quite like that but it is going to be so, so hard for some people (me) to execute. Turning the shoulder is just so natural. That left shoulder just tucks or turns in right away. I need a stiff rod running across the top of my back to tie both of my shoulders back to keep from doing this. It will take all my concentration to keep it from happening. As soon as I stop thinking about it, it will come back. I have been doing something in an effort to correct this without really completely grasping the problem it I think. Let me know what you think about this preshot routine:

I make two slow motion backswings. Instead of keeping my head down I let it turn with my chest and watch my hands rise up directly in front of me as I make the turn. It is only about a 3/4 swing but I am looking directly at my hands at the end of the turn. The backside of my right hand is just inside the back shoulder. I make sure the left wrist is flat. I can see the clubshaft coming up in a nice even plane. I do this twice and then I execute the swing keeping my head down. I lose about a club and a half of distance but when I am playing bad, it gets things under control. I shot an 86 yesterday doing this after shooting near 100 the past two rounds. People watching this probably think I am batty.

[Mr.Wedge]

...it is going to be so, so hard for some people (me) to execute. Turning the shoulder is just so natural. That left shoulder just tucks or turns in right away. I need a stiff rod running across the top of my back to tie both of my shoulders back to keep from doing this.

This is why I advocate keying the torso rotation with the armpits. It causes both to rotate as one unit.

[jambalaya]

This is why I advocate keying the torso rotation with the armpits. It causes both to rotate as one unit.

You know, I am beginning to think maybe my lats are not big enough. Keying on the armpits isn't working for me for some reason. The clubhead under the armpits drill has just been a disaster. It completely throws me off. I understand why it is fundamentally a good approach but I am apparently doing something wrong. Maybe I need to put a volleyball under there. The torso has to rotate without the left shoulder turning in but rather following the rotation of the core. Simple concept. How do I work that out?