lateral slide - swing video

[Armonster20]

darthfader - i really like how steady your swing looks. Wish mine was like that. If you don't mind, could you describe the proportion of weight on each of your feet from the set up, during backswing, during downswing, and to the impact position?

[I don't mean to hijack the thread here, but I think the discussion is relevant to the original post] I find it hard to get the correct balance of weight between my two feet during the swing. If I keep too much weight on the front foot during the backswing (more than 50%), I tend to lean my body towards the target. If I put too much weight on the right foot, I sway backwards like thumper did in his first video. It's hard to get back to the proper impact position from there. Can you shed some light on that?

[darthfader]

If you don't mind, could you describe the proportion of weight on each of your feet from the set up, during backswing, during downswing, and to the impact position?

I'll do my best.

Set up: 50/50 between both feet. Knees SLIGHTLY flexed. Weight on the balls of the feet. Arms hang straight down. Too much knee flex = problems. Takeaway: I try to get the grip moving first. I do this because I have a tendency to whip the club too far inside. Almost feels like I'm pushing my left hand away from the target. Not for everyone, I know. Just my baggage. Getting the club too far inside is REALLY bad for an ex-shanker. :) Backswing: Shoulders are turning, hips also want to turn... but I'm resisting hard with the right adductor (inner thigh) muscles and the left abductor (outer thigh) muscles, trying to "feel" like the hips are turning left while the shoulders are turning right. This is important to note, because this makes up most of the "coil" everyone always talks about, and it gives me a stable base to shift some weight onto. My weight might be 75% right/25% left at the top, and I'm probably sitting more on my right heel than I was at the start. NOTE: In total, I do probably an hour of stretching every day. Hamstrings, glutes, hips, groin, calves, back, shoulders, etc. Some guys were blessed with the ability to coil their bodies, and make the swing seem effortless. I'm not one of those guys. Its a fair amount of work for me. But it pays off. And my lower back doesn't bother me near as much as it used to. Transition: Here's where my swing is lacking the most. I used to have a huge slide towards the target, which pretty much meant that I was locking up the left hip so it could not turn, and I was dragging the club very shallow/inside. No power, very inconsistent, and on bad days... shanks. In theory, you should feel like your weight shifts back to centered, so you can easily rotate everything. If your weight gets going too far left, you can't really rotate. Try standing up straight and turning your hips from side to side... easy. Now do it with 90% of your weight on one leg.... feels uncomfortable. Impact: I'm not totally happy with my impact position, but I'll explain it. Kinda hard to sense what is happening at that speed. In theory, your weight had better be fairly stable, maybe cheating a little towards the left side (as long as you didn't slide over there). My opinion is that the weight should have come back to the balls of your feet, simply because that would signify that your impact position might simulate your address position (never a bad thing). In my case, as you might notice, I get a little TOO far over to my left side (some of the old swing still hanging on), as noted by my right heel much too high at impact. This prevents me from turning as easily as I'd like, which saps power, drags the club a bit shallow/inside (hooks and blocks), and gets me a little farther ahead of the ball than I'd like. I could go on and on... I'm possessed. So I guess my backswing looks "steady", as you've described, because after a lot of hard work, my right leg/hip/groin/butt is finally able to support the load during the backswing. Simple as that. I'm definitely NOT thinking "Don't slide!" during the backswing. When I swayed before, it was a combination of poor technique (I felt I NEEDED to slide to hit the ball) and poor strength/flexibility (my right side couldn't support the load). I'm in better shape now, and I simply don't need to think about it anymore. Moreover, I will say that the downswing slide I still show is exactly the same problem, just on the other side of my body. It'll take some time, but I'll fix it up. :) Just nice to hear from people who really want to improve, instead of just buying another magic driver with a draw bias. I know everyone isn't able to practice regularly and take lessons, but its good to know that some people can. And do. Happy Holidays!

[RC]

The comments above about the hips resisting the shoulder turn are so very well stated. To get this feeling, I challenge people to do the following:

The reverse hip turn drill...

Tee up an eight iron. Try to hit it only 80 yards by turning the shoulders normally while taking the club back, but slightly turn the hips the opposite way of a normal swing during the back swing -- and by this I mean only a few degrees, nothing that produces contortions, just a little twist in the opposite way. Keep the right leg and knee flexed and the weight on the inside of the right foot. The back swing is greatly reduced of course, but the object is just to take the club back with an "anti-hip" turn and hit the ball 80 yards with a downswing that is generated only with the hips clearing and turning in place with no slide. Just drop the club down and through (no hitting with the arms or hands) while thinking the left hip pulls the club through. Make contact with two hip cheeks showing from behind. I tell people to just turn the left pocket behind them to drive the downswing. If the player has a good grip and normal fundamentals and does not line up aimed right (You should line up parallel left or slightly open,) the result is always the same -- a straight flight and unexpectedly long distance.

I've tried this with several and they are usually amazed to discover they can hit the ball as far or almost as far with this little drill as they can with a full swing. The key is to create all the power in the hips and legs. It will work for you if you do not hit at the ball with your hands and arms.

When I am striking the ball well, this is part of my full shot backswing. I actually try to push the right front pants pocket just slightly toward the ball and keep it "looking" at the ball as the backswing completes, then try to fire the hips around as hard as I can to trigger the downswing. When done correctly, you finish up perfectly balanced on the left side and the right foot heel does not lift up too soon and flare out too much (in other words, you do not want to spin out, just turn into the finish -- with no slide.) Weight shift takes care of itself with this ground up, restricted hip turn swing.

I'm not saying the is right for everyone. Some are not flexible enough to do it and some will not stay in balance. But you might try the drill because it will clearly demonstrate that the core body turn through the shot takes care of squaring the club and providing the power.

P.S. So far, everyone I've seen who tried this is shocked to find they almost cannot hit a ball only 80 yards... the ball goes just like a normal 8 iron. Warning: some people experience thinner divots or a few topped shots while doing this. The swing produces a flatter bottom arc and takes some time to get measured to the ball -- that is why you should start out using a tee with the ball perhaps even an inch or half-inch off the ground. In time, people who have this problem figure out the swing and like the shallower divots.

If you try this, post your experiences and what you think of the drill.

Regards,

[darthfader]

It will work for you if you do not hit at the ball with your hands and arms......

RC, I couldn't agree more. The more things I fix in my swing, the more I realize how horribly wrong my approach was a few years ago. I don't think you could argue that striking a golf ball properly is "easy", but it seems a hundred times easier now that my plane is flatter, my hands are more passive, and I don't slide back and forth as much.

I quoted your statement a couple times above, just to confirm a couple things I've noticed. First, on a scale of 1(loose) to 10(death grip), most mid-high handicap golfers seem to grip the club at about a 7. Mostly, it seems, because they feel like they will LOSE the club if they relax their grip. Sadly, they feel as if power comes from the hands and upper body, when the opposite is true. Power and consistency come from moving the hands, arms, and body as little as necessary to get the job done. But I understand how they feel, because I've been there. It is truly scary to go from a 7 grip-pressure to a 4. They wonder, "Where is this club going to end up?" All the more reason to take your advice and practice using a shorter swing. As far as flexibility goes... America is a nation of sitters. Sitting for long periods of time (car, office, home, etc) weakens and tightens a lot of the core areas that need to be strong and flexible for golf. I doubt that many of the tour players would try to sit on a couch all Saturday, then get up Sunday morning, no stretch, no warm-up, hit a couple of wedges on the range, then stripe one 320 yds down the middle off the first tee. And those guys are mostly in their late-20s to mid-30s!! Mr. Average 15 handicap guy, at 40+ yrs old... what chance does he really have to make the kind of dynamic hip turn you are describing? I say slim to none, unless he is unusually gifted, from a flexibility perspective. I have nothing against Mr. Average... I play with him quite often and I enjoy it. I just feel sorry for his lower back. I think that is the reason why handicaps haven't gone down in 20 years (I'm paraphrasing the statistics I've heard). The equipment may be better, but the average golfer is in worse shape. Just my two cents. But back to the thread.... Mr. Thumper keeps himself in good shape... he's got a chance!!

[Armonster20]

I find this all extremely interesting.

Quick follow-up question: how do you square this technique with the school of thought that teaches a more free flowing swing, illustrated by doing drills like swinging with both feet together (so that you have to swing your butt towards the target on the backswing)? Are these different styles, or is it really getting at the same issue?

[golfdad]

tough call,,,here is why.

for amateurs, i think a practical side of us says whatever works works.

the idealistic side insists, but we can get better so need to tinker.

just looking at the swing now, without seeing how you swing before this, not sure what to say.

but if someone comes up and insists that i say something, i will say this:

it is not a good idea to lateral swing like this, at least not in this direction.

your head moved at least 5-6 inches in the span of your backswing. that means, your upper body also moved that much since your head sits on the spine. it is simply a high risk proposition.

can someone become good at it or talented enough to find consistence with it? yes.

my gut feeling is that you were too rigid with your motion, lacking a transfer into the hitting zone with weight shift. now, when you overdo it, you feel your body is more "free" from restrictions and you can make better shots.

for instance, if this routine becomes good and reliable over time, how do you prevent yourself from sliding one day to 4 inches and another day to 7 inches laterally? tough to control that right?

bottom line: head needs to move minimally.

[darthfader]

how do you square this technique with the school of thought that teaches a more free flowing swing, illustrated by doing drills like swinging with both feet together (so that you have to swing your butt towards the target on the backswing)?

Not exactly sure what you mean, but I have a good idea. I remember the first few months of trying to swing with my feet together. At that point, I did not have sufficient flexibility in my hips/torso, so I was not able to "seperate" my hip turn from my shoulder turn. My right leg would straighten, the left leg would collapse, and my butt would sag towards the target. If you can imagine, from the face-on view, my body position at the top looked like a ">" (lower body angling right, upper body angling left). I assume this is what you meant by "swing your butt towards the target".

Now, for the most part, I don't have that problem. My left knee still collapses a little bit, but I'm working hard on that. Being able to maintain the space between my knees is difficult, but very key for me to keep my sliding in check. As an example, look at the Anthony Kim sequence in the December Golf Digest. Note the space between the knees at address. Note the space between the knees at the top. Strength and flexibility, my friends. ;) Hope that helps.

[RC]

For the doubting Thomases who think a loose twisting backswing of the whole body is a good thing, consider the following.

The eye is misleading when you look at a picture from face on and think a pro's butt is facing the target at the top of the backswing. It is better to look at the right leg, which you will see is still flexed and the right upper leg is still leaning slightly to the right (big clue that weight is still over, even if slightly, the right inside of the right foot. Long drive champion Jamie Sadlowski has a 90 degree difference between shoulder turn and hip turn. You cannot do this if you let your hips turn the same as the shoulders. I see people who have almost no coil at all -- their hips turn as much as their shoulders on the backswing. No amount of upper body effort can produce as high a swing speed from this position as can a modern rotational hip clearing swing that has considerable difference between the shoulder turn and hip turn. I see full shoulder turn swings in which the hips over turn that produce swing speeds that have run out of gas long before impact, producing weak, short shots everyday at the course. Somehow is looks like they think if they just swing harder, the distance will come -- but it won't.

If you try this experiment, I think you will really understand the mechanics. Go ahead and take a loose hip turning backswing -- swing the hips and shoulders the same amount. Stop, have some one remove your golf club and put a ball in your right hand. Now try to throw the ball to your target. Ha ha... it is really an awkward unathletic thing you have to do to throw from this position. Then try the throw the ball with the reverse hip turn drill -- it is easy and natural.

I am not advocating a reverse hip turn. Not at all. I am advocating a firm athletic foundation, where the hips resist and cause the storage of the coil of energy from the turn of the shoulders.

For the less flexible, may I suggest a short back swing and still doing the firm hips thing. You can implement a ground up hip clearing swing at almost any age and flexibility, it may just be a little smaller amplitude swing. Most swings produce club heads that are coasting through impact. The huge amount of effort put into the trying to hit with the shoulders, arms, and hands feels strong, but the club head speed just is not there. Next time you marvel at the distance and speed in a pro's swing, think about how effortless it looks compared to the upper body dominated smash that produces far less distance. Believe me... a powerful swing does not move the hips and shoulders forward at the same time, like a swinging gate. If you take them back together, you have to learn some magic timing to get the hips to clear first while you build torque holding your shoulders back -- that is hard. I'm not saying it cannot be done, only that the vast majority of powerful swings do not try such a complicated timing challenge.

Just my opinion... and open to debate.

[PEZGolf]

Not bad at all... great separation going back on the driver. The only thing I see is your right leg gets a little straight and this causes your entire body to move right. Personally, I like to see the reverse K shape on the right side and yours is almost a straight line, which might mean your weight could get stuck or that you revert to sliding to get off the right side. That produces pushes and hooks respectively a lot of the time. But hey, not everyone touts that position. If you keep flex in your right leg and knee, the lower body will not shift much to the right. A key thing to check is if you feel the weight on the inside of the right foot even though you have turned your shoulders behind the ball -- does that make sense? Another thing... the straight right side is a hint of your old reverse pivot issue (you mentioned this old problem.) There are lots of golfers that would like a swing as solid as yours, but with a little adjustment your swing would really look great to those of us that like the ground up body swing.

Good analysis, and I would like to reaffirm two of your main points: 1. It is critical to keep some flex in the right knee. 2. At the top of the swing, your weight should be on the inside of the right foot.

[hamletsdead]

That doesn't look like much of a slide at all. I start my downswing with a bump left and find that it greatly improves ballstriking.

[Armonster20]

The comments above about the hips resisting the shoulder turn are so very well stated. To get this feeling, I challenge people to do the following:

I finally got out to the range today and gave this drill a try. It was a very interesting feeling. I was getting a 3/4 backswing, but it didn't feel like I was actively swinging the club on the downswing. Everything was so coiled up that it all just untwisted towards the ball. I think that's good. What's not so good is that I couldn't stop topping the ball. It felt like my swing was bottoming out a whole inch higher than normal. My natural adjustment is to collapse the right leg, which usually results in taking a huge chunk of dirt about 3 inches behind the ball (a recurring problem that I have). What do you suggest doing about that? Thanks for the drill, it was very helpful.

[RC]

Your experience is why you need to start out with the ball teed up. It takes a while to get the feeling of "remeasuring" to the ball. The drill will force you to release the club down (as if the left wrist arches upward at the base of the left hand thumb.) Everyone I know that has done this drill tops the ball at first because they have really been arm swingers allowing the release of the club too early. The drill is only to learn what it feels like to use your body to power the golf ball. As you probably found out, it is a totally different feeling and the club just whips around into the shot.

Don't allow yourself to take the club very much inside, keep it out in front of your chest -- this will feel strange as well. It will take about a month before you really get dialed in.

Incredibly, I showed this to a 70 something player and he (while greatly changing his swing) actually learned to do it and was elated that he could once again hit a much longer drive -- not a small increase in distance but a significant increase. Of course the driver is teed high so powering a driver is easier than doing it with an iron... but in time, you can get down to the ball and hit irons with the same powerful swing. Focus on releasing the club down through impact.

Once you get the feel of how powerful your body is, just think of strongly resisting the hip turn as the club works back and then cranking the hips as you release down at the ball -- the motion will become second nature.

I think of this type of swing as the modern way so many young players are hitting shots. It is true that on full swings, the hips turn a little but power hitters turn their right hip more toward the target at impact than they allow the left hip to turn back on the backswing.

Anyway, not everyone will get this drill ,or do it correctly, but those that do will likely gain a new feel for how the "ground up" body swing is powerful and squares the club for you. I sincerly hope this helps you in some way -- I would not want anyone doing stuff that results in them getting discouraged or making a change that does not help them.

Regards,

[Armonster20]

Thanks for that information. I've heard about "coil" since I started playing golf, but I never truly felt it until I tried this drill. I'm not sure that I could even hold my body position at the top of the backswing, because my whole body wanted to release all that energy.

I'd like to incorporate this hip-turn resistence into my regular swing. Based on what you've said I'll keep my setup the same, and try to keep the club from coming too much inside. I did actually notice that the club tended to come way inside and resulted in a big draw/hook. Other than adjusting for that, I will keep everything else constant and just keep practicing. Please let me know if there are any other issues to look out for with this type of swing.

Thanks again - I did catch it perfectly a few times and the ball went screaming away off the clubface each time.

[RC]

Thanks for that information. I've heard about "coil" since I started playing golf, but I never truly felt it until I tried this drill. I'm not sure that I could even hold my body position at the top of the backswing, because my whole body wanted to release all that energy.

Then you are getting it. You are right--no one can hold this backswing position statically. You will learn that the transition from backswing to downswing, while not jerky, is when the coil is loaded, and your body simply has to start unloading all that energy. When you learn to control it, the swing will start to look effortless but the reality is you will feel like you have knocked the crap out of the ball. You will know you have expended a huge amount of force, but to the person watching it will look like turned through the shot and the ball explodes out. The difference is you have not put any arms and hand effort into the swing.

[darthfader]

What's not so good is that I couldn't stop topping the ball. It felt like my swing was bottoming out a whole inch higher than normal....What do you suggest doing about that?

RC's drill is very sound, and if you are doing it properly, you probably feel the club whipping through like it is supposed to. Unfortunately, this is a very strange feeling for many of us, especially those of us who have "flipped" the club through impact for years (or decades).

For example, when I started trying to quiet my slide/sway, I suddenly realized that I could rotate my body much faster, and the club started moving much faster. When all the pieces are in place, the movement feels very simple and natural. BUT... I simply could not (and still can't) stop my right hand from flipping the club before impact. Bottom line is... if you're reading this thread, it probably means you know (or suspect) that you slide laterally towards the target during the downswing. Based on that assumption, one can assume that you have developed many different compensations over the years to allow you to strike the ball, even if that strike is poor. A slide usually indicates a bunch of problems.... poor hip rotation, shallow attack (maybe even shanks), etc. Getting rid of the slide won't instantly cure those problems. They'll each need some work too. In your case, I agree with RC. I'd bet the club is getting "behind" you on the way down, because your arms haven't adjusted to the feeling of supporting the new speed. For a habitual "slider", the idea of keeping the "arms in front of the chest" is a great one, but it needs to be accompanied by the hands/grip being very passive. Your ARMS need to stay out in front of your chest, and resist collapsing down across your chest. Your HANDS need to have a relaxed hold on the club, nothing more. Hard to accept for us "sliders", since we're used to everything being locked up at impact, and our slide has caused the club to shallow out to the point where we perform some body+hands ugliness to arrive at impact. As RC states... keep the club in front of you. And definitely hit off of a tee. Tee the ball up like a driver for a few balls. Once you start to maintain your posture better, you may start hitting balls high on the face. Time to lower the tee. Rinse and repeat. Good luck.

[Armonster20]

In your case, I agree with RC. I'd bet the club is getting "behind" you on the way down, because your arms haven't adjusted to the feeling of supporting the new speed. For a habitual "slider", the idea of keeping the "arms in front of the chest" is a great one, but it needs to be accompanied by the hands/grip being very passive. Your ARMS need to stay out in front of your chest, and resist collapsing down across your chest. Your HANDS need to have a relaxed hold on the club, nothing more.

Could you expound on this a bit? I'm not sure I'm understanding what it means to keep your arms in front of your chest, or resist collapsing across your chest. Thanks!

[darthfader]

Could you expound on this a bit? I'm not sure I'm understanding what it means to keep your arms in front of your chest, or resist collapsing across your chest. Thanks!

Sure thing. Notice the position of your hands/arms at address. They're obviously directly in front of your chest! :) Now ask yourself, where are your hands/arms at the top of the backswing, in relation to your chest? In other words, how close is your left elbow to your chest? Have you maintained the "triangle" established by your chest and arms at address? Have you maintained the space between your elbows? As reference, take a look at these images of Tiger:

http://perfectgolfswingreview.net/Ti...swingShift.jpg Notice how his left arm isn't folded weakly across the chest in the right picture. Delivering the club into the ball properly requires precise, coordinated movements. This is made far easier if you are able to establish a good address position, and then somehow reproduce this address position AT IMPACT, if only for a tiny fraction of a second. My point for anyone who "slides" on the downswing is that the slide tends to do a few things: 1. Prevents the body from rotating correctly 2. Prevents the body from reproducing the address position at impact 3. Gives the swing a lateral force (instead of a rotational force) that acts to trap the club behind you. You mentioned above that you tried the drill and occasionally hit a few big hooks. This should tell you that the club is approaching shallow and WAY inside the target line. My guess is: you've been a "slider" long enough that your hands/arms are trained to get very close to your body on the downswing. Now, doing this drill, you are adding more speed into the equation and the club gets off-plane (too inside, too shallow). My advice... keep doing the drill. Get comfortable with the idea of coiling into the right leg. By itself, the idea of coiling is difficult enough to require a WHILE to master. Later, if you want to advance this "coil" idea, you will need to train your body to un-coil while keeping the club on plane. This, I believe, is what causes your hooks and thin shots during the drill. Us sliders tend to be "pickers" of the ball, using our hands for power, and creating no leverage. (We also tend to approach from the inside during our early release, which leads to blocks right when we release a little late, and big hooks when we release a little early.) If this applies to you, you may eventually need to rework your downswing to get your hands more "above" the plane (which means they'll feel like they are farther away from your chest on the way down). Good luck. Keep doing the drill and using the tees. :)

[RC]

Darth -- we must drink the same Kool Aid because I agree with you. I don't find many who think of the swing this way, and it is really hard to describe in words what one means. I like your video swing as well.

If I said to someone, "keep the clubhead in front of you and above your hands during the swing" how on earth can that be explained in a post so they would get it? I am usually afraid someone will get all messed up trying to do that. Looks to me like that is what you are doing, and it is what I try to do as well. Maybe the answer is to say, "just swing like Kenny Perry, or Elkington, or AK, or Tiger, or...." Now if I could do that and not flip every once in a while, I'd be happy.