Phil's Two Drivers

[JPsuff]

Hypocrisy?

In what way?

Did I say in any of my posts that I didn't like graphite shafts?

No.

Did I say that I used them myself?

Yes.

Did I say that I was thrilled with them?

Yes.

So where's the hypocrisy?

As for those "specialized sticks", I bought those shafts based on weight, kick-point and torque. Period. Nothing else. And when I was looking up their specs, the torque rating, (in the case of the NV, for example), was 2.8, which is the same as my driver. In fact, the YS-9's are also 2.8. But you know what? If they were 3.0 I still would have bought them because I really don't see as how I'd notice the difference - which is the point of my whole post.

This country has gone shaft-happy, is all I'm saying. And I really don't believe that if a guy was fitted with a shaft with a torque of, say, 3.5 and the only shaft available to him was rated at 3.7, that he'd throw himself under a bus because of that.

Stand in line with a bunch of guys talking to a fitter and all you'll hear is a cacophany of club specs. But I think that all of this spec-happy nonsense is just that - nonsense.

If shafts were offered with torque spaecs which only went up in increments of 0.5, (like 2.5, 3.0, 3.5, and so on, do you honestly think that someone is going to end up dissatisfied?
Is 3.6 all that differnt from 3.5?

I use graphite for the same reason everyone else does, because they allow me to increase my swing speed. So that's a weight issue. I want the shaft to be relatively firm and that's a torque issue and I want them to have either mid or high bend points.
To me, if I'm looking for a shaft weighing about 75 grams, and if I can only find one that's 77 or 73 grams, then what's the difference?

I guess I'm just trying to say that I find it more than a little amusing that we, the golfing public, have become so enamored of all of these specifications to the point where we've begun to actually argue in terms of tenths of a unit of measure. What makes it even funnier is that if your swing is off and you mis-hit the ball, then all of these tightly coreographed specs go right out the window anyway.

I dunno...

Maybe I'm not coming through as clear as I think I am, but I just get a kick out watching the way people in this country react to technology.

Keep It Simple.

Low, Medium and High works most of the time, until we recalibrate the scale to include all of the infinitesimals. Then it starts to get silly. Like having a seven speed transmission on a home lawn tractor. It just gets stupid after that.

[NM Golf]

This country has gone shaft-happy, is all I'm saying. And I really don't believe that if a guy was fitted with a shaft with a torque of, say, 3.5 and the only shaft available to him was rated at 3.7, that he'd throw himself under a bus because of that.

I think the major problem here in this disagreement is that you don't understand how shafts work and you definately don't understand the fitting process. Really do you think they fit you to a certain torque then find a shaft with that torque and put it in your driver and thats it? No thought about weight or flex? Torque is the one aspect in shaft fitting that changes very little between models. More important in driver fitting is shaft flex, weight and Kick point. You really need to go get fitted or at least hit some different shafts before you comment any longer on this thread because you sound silly and uninformed.

[JPsuff]

Oh for cryin' out loud.

I was just using torque as an example.

Read my posts.

I have said on numerous occasions that Torque, Weight and Kick Point are the basic parameters of shaft technology. And no, I didn't mention flex, but flex has to do with weight, torque and kick point combined as well as wall thickness and profile, so flex is more of a product of those things than it is a specific design criteria.

And then there's tip stiffness, tip trimming, swingweight, head weight, shaft frequency, club weight, lie angle, (or more importantly, dynamic lie angle because the shaft flexes downward at the point of impact which brings the toe of the clubhead down and flattens the lie).
Then there's closed face, neutral face, open face, bounce, hosel offset. And there are also characteristic changes which come from through bores, blind bores and standard bores and tip diameters and even things like grip thickness will influence a golf club.


I get all of that.

And I've been building my own clubs for years.
I've also hit quite a number of shafts of many types and brands as well as having spent a considerable amount of time on launch monitors assessing my swing and deciding which components work best for me - all with the help of qualified fitters.

But even with all of those things, all I've been saying is that there are too many shaft types out there and the differences between them are, in many cases, insignificant. Especially when you consider that in a given run of shafts, there can be a wide variation in overall specs. Or, simply put, it's rare to find two shafts of the same design with absolutely identical characteristics. Specs can vary between shafts on any given production run. So in any given lot, there may be those couple of decimal point differences between shafts which makes all of this "micro-fitting" rather silly.

So do you get what I'm saying yet, or do we need the flash cards?

[cmarkmyers]

I am really enjoying this thread and I agree with everyone to a certain extent while disagreeing with everyone on other things. What I really like is the intelligent discussion going on where people are disagreeing without this turning into an Internet flame battle. You two also sort of remind me of the Titleist ads featuring John Cleese as Ian and Angus MacCalliser.

And I actually have 2 drivers and am thinking about carrying both. One I tend to balloon and it goes a good 200 yards straight and about 80 to the right. The other goes perfectly straight about 90 to 120 yards without ever leaving the ground. Judging by the divots I take both are swinging straight but my first one must be fade biased. I am not sure if I will keep both in the bag, though, as with head covers they take too much room.

[iacas]

I was just using torque as an example.

A bad example. Just like the "R, S, and X" flex shafts and the "basketball vs. golf" analogy.

So do you get what I'm saying yet, or do we need the flash cards?

No need to launch personal attacks, JP. Chill out.

[NCGolfer]

I am not sure if I will keep both in the bag, though, as with head covers they take too much room.

I just thought of something Erik, we could be the first to market with the "Two-Driver Headcover". It could look like a manzier or a bro in honor of Phil starting the two driver phenomenon.

Rich, I tell you...we could be rich.

[iacas]

I just thought of something Erik, we could be the first to market with the "Two-Driver Headcover". It could look like a manzier or a bro in honor of Phil starting the two driver phenomenon.

For most players, we'd have to label one "Big Slice" and the other "Duck Hook." In fact, "BS" and "DH" sound about right for this kind of thing...

Would a 460cc driver be a D cup or a C?

[Jeepthrills]

For most players, we'd have to label one "Big Slice" and the other "Duck Hook." In fact, "BS" and "DH" sound about right for this kind of thing...

The great thing is I can hit both of those with the same club. Therefore I can save $400.

A 300cc breast implant that is over inflated with sailene to 340cc will result in a full C to a small D. I will check tonight to see if your estimation is correct.

[NCGolfer]

Would a 460cc driver be a D cup or a C?

I think my R7 might be a double D. The thing is huge...

[NM Golf]

But even with all of those things, all I've been saying is that there are too many shaft types out there and the differences between them are, in many cases, insignificant.

Again welcome to the U.S. Economy. Thats what makes the this a great country to live in, choices. Who are you to limit my choices in shaft type. The way I've been hitting the driver as of late I might try them all. I mean its gotta be the shaft it couldn't possibly be my swing!

just thought of something Erik, we could be the first to market with the "Two-Driver Headcover". It could look like a manzier or a bro in honor of Phil starting the two driver phenomenon.

For most players, we'd have to label one "Big Slice" and the other "Duck Hook." In fact, "BS" and "DH" sound about right for this kind of thing...

I would like to be the first to order the golfzier. I'm going with the two driver craze. But could you label mine "fore right" and "fore left"!

[ragontona]

Old Thread Resurrection:

Was thumbing through the new issue of Golf Digest, and a letter from a reader caused me to do some research. So without further ado -- Johnny Miller: Prophet.

The case for packing two drivers - Equipment - Brief Article
Golf Digest , April, 2003 by Johnny Miller , Guy Yocom
Players usually alter their set composition by adding an extra wedge or utility wood in lieu of a long iron. But, just as Ben Hogan took the 7-iron out of his bag in favor of a 1-iron for the 1950 U.S. Open at Merion, players in the Masters might consider an unorthodox adjustment: carrying two drivers.

Augusta National, a long course with firm, fast fairways, begs for two types of tee shots. One is a high fade with maximum carry, such as at No. 1. The other is a low screamer, a draw that runs a mile after landing--the downhill 10th hole fits the bill. Two drivers at either end of the loft spectrum makes sense.

Now, Johnny didn't nail the head with the draw-bias, fade-bias driver (instead offering the option of two lofts), but the two driver concept seemed to be his brainchild.

All I can say is, good thing he wasn't a commentator at Augusta this year. We would've never heard the end of it.