What do you think of the "No women members allowed" at Augusta

[Bamma]

I have read all the posts, many, particulary the most recent cite legal issues. For me it is morally wrong what Augusta National is doing. They have profitted handsomely from golf, their obligation now is to help promote it. If they were really forward-thinking, they would host a Women's Master's tournament; I guarantee it would be an instant ladies major. Lawyers are already taking over common sense in this country. It is not about your club Augusta National, it's about our sport. Take the high road and get off your high horse.

So now, you are going to call others morally wrong based on the set of morals you have set up for yourself? They have an obligation now, just because you think they do?

Look, the issue is pretty straight-forward here. AN invites people into their club that they want to be in. There is no policy saying "no women can be members." Rather, they have just not found one they wanted to invite yet. Hell, I wanna be a member there too? Are they morally wrong for omitting middle-class accountants with high handicaps who could not afford to be a member anyway? Of course not. As was said, even Bill Gates was left out for quite some time because they just did not yet consider him to be the right fit at the time. That's their option. There is no application to complete and then be denied. It is more likely you just get an invite from them and in you go.

[Jared]

I dont like it at all, but its a private club and they technically can do what they want. I just dont see why golf clubs arent allowed to discriminate based on race or creed but they can based on gender. Its archaic.

I'm pretty sure clubs are allowed to "discriminate" based on race and creed. In Pittsburgh, there is a Jewish only club. They have only Jewish membership, and it's a universally known fact.

I'm not Jewish, I can't join that club. And that's OK. It's a private club, and as such can choose who they would like to accept as members. Clubs like Shoal Creek that were white only did not change their policies because they were illegal. They changed because the USGA informed the club that no US Open Championship would ever be played there while that policy was on the books. Personally, I was in the process of joining a club in Pittsburgh when I discovered that they had a policy of not admitting any black members. I chose not to join until years later when the club changed ownership, and those policies were changed. However, that club had the right to those policies, as distasteful as they are to me personally. I had the right not to join or play there, which I happily exercised. The same rules apply to Augusta IMHO. Just my $.02.

[bcp]

I echo many of the posts here: private clubs can make their own rules.

[RocketSauce]

my 2 cents

i take it then that you think "

Shapes Fitness " is wrong because they dont allow men to join their gym?

[iacas]

I dont like it at all, but its a private club and they technically can do what they want. I just dont see why golf clubs arent allowed to discriminate based on race or creed but they can based on gender. Its archaic.

I'm also fairly certain private clubs can discriminate on race if they want. They won't get to host a major or a PGA Tour event, but they can if they want, IIRC.

IANAL either, but I'm still fairly certain that's right.

[DavidFehertysBike]

I'm also fairly certain private clubs can discriminate on race if they want. They won't get to host a major or a PGA Tour event, but they can if they want, IIRC.

Well i should say "tolerated" rather than can or cannot. A club can discriminate on race, but it would often be political suicide if it became known to the general public. Clubs seem to be able to get away with discriminating agaist women in the wide open. Like Pine valley in jersey. They dont even allow women on the property there and its a well known fact.

[denver_nuggs_15]

Call me a chauvinist, but I think a private club should be able to admit, or exclude whomever they like.

They can do just about whatever they want (excluding employment issues). Employment is covered by its own set of laws, but as far as I know, a private institution (not funded/run by gov't) is allowed to discriminate as long as it doesn't become a personal attack (tort laws). Basically, it's my understanding that Augusta can have a policy of "no women", but cannot have a policy that states "no women allowed because they [fill in the blank]". Once a personal attack is made, it would probably become an issue.

But what about privately held companies? They cannot choose/exclude employees based on race or gender.

Employment is much different. And I think in some cases they can.

Just to open up discussion again...what makes a private club different than a privately owned company when it comes to this issue? Is there a parallel to draw?

Private companies can accept whoever they want as customers. For example, I've been to a kosher deli that would not serve me because I was not Jewish. Apparantly, it's legal. Private companies abide by the same laws for the most part.

I dont like it at all, but its a private club and they technically can do what they want. I just dont see why golf clubs arent allowed to discriminate based on race or creed but they can based on gender. Its archaic.

Private clubs can base it off of race, religion, ethnicity, height, anything. I'm almost positive that it's completely legal to base it off anything as long as an insult isn't made (again...tort laws).

A club can discriminate on race, but it would often be political suicide if it became known to the general public. Clubs seem to be able to get away with discriminating agaist women in the wide open. Like Pine valley in jersey. They dont even allow women on the property there and its a well known fact.

Doesn't Hollywood in Jersey not allow Syrians? Or maybe it's Deal CC, but one of those clubs in Deal doesn't allow Syrians. There are also a couple courses that don't allow Irish people as members.

Several here have said that they have a moral issue with Augusta's policy. I do too. But law should not deal with morals. Law follows a set of strict rules for determining what is/isn't legal to do. Once morals are used to determine what should or should not be legal, the lines become very fuzzy. Augusta's policy is 100% legal. There was a Supreme Court case about the Boy Scouts and their policy of not admitting gay leaders and the judges backed the BSA up. While this does not affect me at all, I think Augusta is being a little silly, but as a private organization, they can do whatever they want.

[nike_golf]

Call me sexist if you will, but it's no secret that professional MENS athletics, ANY athletics, is far and above better than any womens athletics.....

the same goes for golf....

If a high end private club doesn't want to deal w/ the other tee boxes, and the "lesser" sex (as far as sports ((golf)) is concerned) more power to them.......

I wish my local muni. was off limits to women........

(hey, I'm being honest)

[Dpricenator]

I'm not sure what is unclear about this situation. It's a private club, that does not have a rule prohibiting women members. It may have a practice of not inviting members, but so do the boy scouts. How about the Colegiate Greek System. Girls would never be invited to join Kappa Sigma, or any of the other Fraternities. And men would not be invited to join a Sorority. And like Flanagan said, this is old news and has been settled long ago.

[Golfgal]

Well, I certainly wasn't expecting all of this conversation over my question, but I thank you all for your comments. I actually learned a lot and that confirmed once again for me that forums are interesting places to hang out, even when they can be a bit brutal at times.

I stand corrected on the 'Women not allowed" comment - it would seem that women just haven't been invited to Augusta yet ;) Lesson learned!

And just an FYI...this is not entire basis of my article on Augusta and The Masters - it is a small part. I hope I didn't leave the impression that I wanted to write a rant and rave on Augusta - never my intent.

Anyway...thanks to you all. You've been great!

[HytrewQasdfg]

Hi Everyone

I'm fine with it, just as I'm fine with Agnus Scott College (a college I would like to attend because of its academics) only admitting women.

If there was a shortage of golf courses (or college) where people of the opposite sex could attend, then there would be a problem. But the fact is there are plenty of golf courses (elite ones as well) that admit women, and plenty of colleges that admit men. Diversity doesn't mean opening the door to everything. That simply makes everthing the same (bland and boring.) Think of the golf course itself. Each course is unique. In fact the quirkier or unique the course is, the more interesting it is to play. I definitly score better on the homoginized, real-estate development courses that have been develop over the last couple of decades. But I have a much better time playing the older unique courses (even though at times I feel like I'm being penalized by the unusual course features.) There's room for unique (and even quirky) institutions in America. Sure Augusta is different, but would we really be better off if we turned it into just another version of the local golf club in Cleveland, Baltimore, or Sacramento?

[iacas]

Well i should say "tolerated" rather than can or cannot. A club can discriminate on race, but it would often be political suicide if it became known to the general public.

Not necessarily. And no, I don't have any examples, but I'm sure there are clubs somewhere or groups somewhere that do this that we haven't heard about.

Augusta only took in a black member semi-recently (1990), and they got into a little trouble, but it wasn't anything approaching "suicide."

[zubady]

So now, you are going to call others morally wrong based on the set of morals you have set up for yourself? They have an obligation now, just because you think they do?

Remember an entire country excluded an entire race, it was not lawyers that changed that, it was a moral outcry. It's not my morals, it should be everyone's morals who subscribe to live in this country. My point was and remains, this is not a legal issues, we don't need lawyers or elaborate explanations to understand that it is just plain wrong by the simple standard of human decency.

[Dpricenator]

Remember an entire country excluded an entire race, it was not lawyers that changed that, it was a moral outcry. It's not my morals, it should be everyone's morals who subscribe to live in this country. My point was and remains, this is not a legal issues, we don't need lawyers or elaborate explanations to understand that it is just plain wrong by the simple standard of human decency.

Well dang it all to heck. I guess my daughter can join the Boy Scouts next year. After all it would be morally wrong not to allow it.

How about this example. I have a poker game every Friday night and it's invite only. I choose not to invite women or douchebags. Women distract me, and no one likes a douchebag. So am I morally wrong not to post a invite on craigslist inviting my whole city? Come on dude, it's a PRIVATE club, that just wants a gentlemen's gettaway.

[Shindig]

Well, I certainly wasn't expecting all of this conversation over my question, but I thank you all for your comments. I actually learned a lot and that confirmed once again for me that forums are interesting places to hang out, even when they can be a bit brutal at times.

We welcome you there. I hope you didn't interpret my comment as brutal towards you.

I stand corrected on the 'Women not allowed" comment - it would seem that women just haven't been invited to Augusta yet ;) Lesson learned!

Actually, the back corner of my memory says they used to have women members in their earlier days. I don't have a citation, and if I had more time to devote to this, I'd look more into it. I'm certainly interested in finding out if the corner of my mind is correct.

[flanagan]

Call me sexist if you will, but it's no secret that professional MENS athletics, ANY athletics, is far and above better than any womens athletics.....

Honest, but idiotic. Professional men's golf vs. women's golf really has nothing to do with the membership issue at Augusta National.

With your attitude you certainly don't have to worry about spending time at your local muni, or maybe anywhere else with women. Just being honest

[flanagan]

We welcome you there. I hope you didn't interpret my comment as brutal towards you.

Built by men, for men, no women members.

[zubady]

So now, you are going to call others morally wrong based on the set of morals you have set up for yourself? They have an obligation now, just because you think they do?

Well dang it all to heck. I guess my daughter can join the Boy Scouts next year. After all it would be morally wrong not to allow it.

By hosting a tournament, and getting paid by CBS and the handful of sponsors, they have transcended the "Private Club" realm. Let them host a tournament that is not televised; they can have their own private party; who cares. They promote themselves as one of the institutions of golf soaking up all the historical metaphors and basking in people gushing about their contributions to the game. So what you are saying is let's give them a free pass for their duplicity simply because they can hide behind the private club clause. Come on dude, the Nazi's just wanted a pure race. I wish some of these pros had to guts to be invited but decline on the basis of a club that has no moral center.