Ball dropped by flagstick attendant?

[Ignorant]

What is the ruling if a person attending the flagstick accidentally drops his ball (or any other object of his) on player’s moving ball having been putted from within the putting green? Is the player subject to two penalties based on Rule 17-3b or is his stroke cancelled and replayed according to Rule 19-1b (and Dec. 19-5/1.7)?

[fendermallot]

I'm not a rules expert, but I think it's the second. Followed by a severe beat down.

[Mats++]

I'll go with Decision 19-5/1.7

Decision 19-5/1.7 Ball Dropped on Putting Green by Opponent or Fellow- Competitor Falls on Player's Moving Ball Q: A makes a stroke on the putting green. B, A's opponent or a fellow-competitor, accidentally drops his ball, which he had lifted, and it falls on A's ball, which is still in motion. What is the ruling? A: In match play, since A's ball was deflected by B's equipment (see Note 1 under Definition of "Equipment"), Rule 19-3 applies. A has the option of playing his ball as it lies or cancelling and replaying the stroke. Neither A nor B incurs a penalty. In stroke play, A's ball was deflected by a moving outside agency. Therefore, A must cancel and replay his stroke, without penalty, under Rule 19-1b. B incurs no penalty. In either form of play, B must replace his ball on the spot from which it was lifted -- Rule 20-3a.

[Ignorant]

I do not see that so straightforward. Dec 19-5/1.7 talks about opponent or fellow-competitor but is that quite the same as a person attending the flagstick?

Rule 17-3b states:
The player’s ball must not strike:
....
b. The person attending or holding up the flagstick or anything
carried by him ;

The essential question lies in the bolded section: is a ball (or other equipment of his) 'anything carried by him'? And if not, what is? And where is that described in the Rules?

Is there a difference if the attendant is actually holding the object (i.e. a club or an umbrella) or has dropped it when the ball in question hits it?

[RemyM]

That's a tough one. Nothing in the rules or decisions specifically addresses that. When he drops the ball is it still being carried by him? You might want to contact the USGA and ask.
http://www.usga.org/rules/contact/Contact-Us/

[glebert]

I do not see that so straightforward. Dec 19-5/1.7 talks about opponent or fellow-competitor but is that quite the same as a person attending the flagstick?

Who else would be attending the flagstick and holding a golf ball that had been lifted?

If someone penalized me for someone else dropping a ball onto my putt I am quitting the game.

[Ignorant]

Who else would be attending the flagstick and holding a golf ball that had been lifted?

That's the whole issue. There is a specific Rule (17) covering the flagstick and attending it. This Rule does not take a stand who is attending the flagstick but it lays out certain specific scenarios about things that may happen and what are the consequences.

If a fellow-competitor not attending the flagstick drops an object on player's ball Rule 19 applies and Dec 19-5/1.7. Or if player strikes fellow-competitor's foot with his ball. But if this fellow-competitor is attending the flagstick it is a whole different situation and covered by a different Rule. I agree that it does not sound fair if I am penalized of somebody's distracted mind as may happen if the person attending the flagstick forgets to lift it from the hole and my ball strikes the flagstick. However, it is one of the Rules of Golf and must be respected. Btw, also anybody's caddie may attend the flagstick, and even a spectator. The latter would be an outside agency until he starts attending, then his status changes and his acts would be covered by different Rules.

[Fourputt]

The ball when dropped is no longer being carried by the attendant. It becomes the equipment of a fellow competitor or opponent at that point and decision 19-5/1.7 applies.

[Ignorant]

The ball when dropped is no longer being

So You mean that if the attendant holds a club in his hand and the club touches the ground and suddenly he realizes that player's ball is about to strike the club he quickly releases his grip from the club letting it fall and if the ball then hits the club no penalty is incurred because attendant was not carrying the club at the time of impact?

You may be right. I just think that that kind of interpretation might lead to difficult situations. Let us assume the attendant is using golf crocs (what a terrible thought!!!). Just as he is taking the flagstick out of the hole and stepping back he accidentally drops his shoe from his foot and the ball strikes the shoe. Ruling? Phrase '... or anything carried by him...' in my opinion does not mean things he has in his possession at a specific moment but things he has carried until then and aims to keep carrying. An identical expression is '.. anything worn by him...'. This does not mean that clothes he wore in the beginning of the round but stuck in his bag but clothes he is wearing at the time. Looking at this issue this way would give a different result from Dec 19-5/1.7 and would, in my opinion, make rulings easier in cases like this. Interesting case, all in all.

[Ignorant]

You might want to contact the USGA and ask.

Cannot do that from Europe, USGA will not handle questions coming from the jurastiction area of R&A.; On the other hand, R&A; does not give a decision unless it has happened in a competition and the Committee has not been able to give a ruling and they contact R&A.;

Maybe You could post it to USGA?

[iacas]

Phrase '... or anything carried by him...' in my opinion does not mean things he has in his possession at a specific moment but things he has carried until then and aims to keep carrying. An identical expression is '.. anything worn by him...'. This does not mean that clothes he wore in the beginning of the round but stuck in his bag but clothes he is wearing at the time.

If his shoe falls off, he's no longer "wearing" it. Is a ball that's flying through the air "resting" because it was just a moment ago, right before someone hit it? No.

The act of carrying something ends the moment you drop it.

Looking at this issue this way would give a different result from Dec 19-5/1.7 and would, in my opinion, make rulings easier in cases like this. Interesting case, all in all.

19-5/1.7 applies because him dropping the ball has nothing to do with him attending the flagstick. I'm not sure why you think this is such a difficult one.

[Fourputt]

So You mean that if the attendant holds a club in his hand and the club touches the ground and suddenly he realizes that player's ball is about to strike the club he quickly releases his grip from the club letting it fall and if the ball then hits the club no penalty is incurred because attendant was not carrying the club at the time of impact?

Just because a fellow competitor is attending the flagstick, he doesn't cease being a fellow competitor. In his role as attendant, what he is carrying or holding is covered under Rule 17 in respect to a ball played from the putting green, but once he is no longer holding or carrying a piece of his equipment as a fellow competitor, then Rule 17 no longer applies.

You are trying to read too much into this. The term "carried" implies that it is in his possession. Once dropped, the ball is no longer in his possession, therefore it does not meet the definition of "carried".

[Ignorant]

I'm not sure why you think this is such a difficult one.

Because I'm Ignorant

The act of carrying something ends the moment you drop it.

In general this is untrue. A person may carry a gun and he is still carrying it even though he drops it accidentally. Also a person may be carrying his furniture from one room to another and he is still in the act of doing it even though he places the object on the floor to take a breath.

As far as this particular Rule of Golf is concerned I am not quite sure. It all depends on what The Lords have had in their minds when having written this Rule. Does the status of an object carried by the flag attendant change when dropped whilst that of a caddie or an opponent does not (Rule 19-2, 19-3)? The status of a flag attendant does certainly not change into something else just because he is dropping something. He is still holding the flag in his hand an indeed is attending it. Thus Rule 17 should apply. I am not saying that I am right, I just want to hear more and different arguments for and against. And of course put people to think about the Rules and their own conceptions about them

[zeg]

Who else would be attending the flagstick and holding a golf ball that had been lifted?

If they're attending the flagstick, they have special status. Rule 17-1 indicates a player may "have the flagstick attended" and Note 2 clarifies

If, prior to the stroke, the flagstick is attended, removed or held up by anyone with the player's knowledge and he makes no objection, the player is deemed to have authorized it.

Thus, the person holding up the flagstick is acting on the player's behalf with his consent. This means it's up to you to choose someone who you trust to be careful to attend, and if they incur a penalty, you are reasonably held responsible. On the other hand, if you are unaware, there is a special exception in Rule 17-2,

If an opponent or his caddie in match play or a fellow-competitor or his caddie in stroke play, without the player's authority or prior knowledge, attends, removes or holds up the flagstick during the stroke or while the ball is in motion, and the act might influence the movement of the ball, the opponent or fellow-competitor incurs the applicable penalty.

This seems completely reasonable.

[iacas]

In general this is untrue. A person may carry a gun and he is still carrying it even though he drops it accidentally. Also a person may be carrying his furniture from one room to another and he is still in the act of doing it even though he places the object on the floor to take a breath.

No, they aren't. Go buy a dictionary. If you want to keep pushing this point - which it seems you want to do just to be a pest - I'll close the thread.

The status of a flag attendant does certainly not change into something else just because he is dropping something. He is still holding the flag in his hand an indeed is attending it.

Yes, but go ahead and try to find the rule or decision that covers "something dropped by flag attendant strikes ball in motion" and get back to me. In the absence of such a rule, the guy who dropped the ball is an opponent.

Thus Rule 17 should apply.

Don't think so. Not until "dropped" becomes a synonym of "carried."

If they're attending the flagstick, they have special status. Rule 17-1 indicates a player may "have the flagstick attended" and Note 2 clarifies

The ball dropping has nothing to do with the flagstick attending.

In all flagstick-related activities, the guy is the "flagstick attendant." Outside of that, he's a fellow competitor or opponent. Try it another way: since players and caddies incur the same penalties virtually everywhere in the rules, what if the flagstick attendant's caddie drops a ball that hits yours while it's moving? Rule 19, not 17.

[glebert]

If you want to take this to a ridiculous extreme, how about the opponent is attending the flagstick and holding, oh I don't know, maybe a Canadian goose in his arms. After you hit your putt, he drops the goose, which grabs your ball, drops it into the sandtrap, and then defecates on it. How many strokes should the guy putting be penalized?

[iacas]

If you want to take this to a ridiculous extreme, how about the opponent is attending the flagstick and holding, oh I don't know, maybe a Canadian goose in his arms. After you hit your putt, he drops the goose, which grabs your ball, drops it into the sandtrap, and then defecates on it. How many strokes should the guy putting be penalized?

That depends: does the poop touch the ball when it's still touching the goose or has it separated from the goose by the time it touches the ball? Also, is the goose wearing a leash?

[Fourputt]

If you want to take this to a ridiculous extreme, how about the opponent is attending the flagstick and holding, oh I don't know, maybe a Canadian goose in his arms. After you hit your putt, he drops the goose, which grabs your ball, drops it into the sandtrap, and then defecates on it. How many strokes should the guy putting be penalized?

Now that puts this whole debate right where it should be. In this case I think I'll check into the legality of substituting another ball for the one that got dumped on. Even though it's recoverable, I'm not sure I want to deal with the possible consequences.