What causes a hook?

[Williamevanl]

Alright maybe I'm being an idiot but I think I finally figured out these why these terms bother me.

One question.

If I had a picture of someone square to the target line but closed to the swing path line at impact it would be identical to someone that is square to the target line but open to the swing path line?

[timwalsh300]

What about my treadmill and bouncy ball analogy.

In that example the belt of the treadmill is facing 90*

away from the direction of travel. It is not facing square to the direction travel at all. That is like swinging with the toe of your club head pointed directly away from the target, back toward the tee-boxes. The golf ball wouldn't even move because it would never even be struck. The club face would just brush past the ball. Tim

[timwalsh300]

Alright maybe I'm being an idiot but I think I finally figured out these why these terms bother me.

I'm not sure I understand your example so I'll create one that might help you.

These two swings would produce the same ball flight (straight, no spin, but traveling left of the target)... 1. Align your feet to point left of the target. Swing straight down this path (left of the target). Keep the club face square relative to this swing path (so the face is angled left of the target). 2. Align your feet to point straight at the target. Swing on a path left of the target (out-to-in). Keep the club face square relative to this swing path (so the face is angled left of the target). Notice that the only difference between the two swings is how your feet are aligned. Swing path (relative to the target) and angle between the club face and the path are identical - hence the identical ball flight. Tim

[Williamevanl]

Really? The horizontal movement of the belt is supposed to be analogous to the horizontal movement of the club coming from the inside or outside. The ball being tossed at the belt is like the club face coming in contact with the ball.

[Williamevanl]

I'm not sure I understand your example so I'll create one that might help you.

I get that.*although again there would be spin* My question still remains though. One guys club is closed to the swing path, the other guys club is open to the swing path, there is a picture of both of them at impact, all things being equal are the images identical?

My understanding is the body/arms/legs and the club position would be identical for both individuals, so it seems you can only determine the face angle relative to the swing path if you see the position of the club head prior to impact? That all seems crazy.

[Zeph]

You don't have to see anything. You use the flight of the ball to determine what you did. Inside a few degrees inside or outside it's impossible without a launch monitor, but if you hit a pronounced draw or fade, you would see that the ball started out square to the swingpath, where your feet aim and draw or fade in either direction. You can't determine the clubface without the swingpath angle

If one guy has a closed face and the other an open, both on the same swingpath, the positions could be the same, only the angle of the clubface differs them.

[Williamevanl]

Alright I'm not bringing this back to argue anything but I did find it interesting that after trying to get to the bottom of it I ended up arriving at a website with *seriously* 77 pages of people arguing about swing path/target path and its effect on the ball. *not thread pages either, actual copy and paste into word with 12 font and get 77pages.*

There's a lot of bs examples and actual physics and none of it matters because there's 'evidence' that old accepted ball flight rules as well as intuition doesn't hold up for various reasons. blah blah etc...

The site http://www.oneplanegolfswing.com/gol...gle-video.html

I guess all I need to know to practice the way I want is this...
If I line up parallel left of a target perfectly and my club head is positioned perfectly square to the target *not swing path* and I come from a couple degrees inside will the ball start right and have draw spin?

[shortstop20]

The site

The videos on that link don't show up for me, are they showing up for anyone else?

[Williamevanl]

No I'm pretty sure they are down but he describes what he is doing in them anyway. I decided to post a poll with my basic question as this is the only thing that I'm concerned with anyway.

*oh and bravo for actually going to look at the 77 pages of argument. :P*

[iacas]

There's a lot of bs examples and actual physics and none of it matters because there's 'evidence' that old accepted ball flight rules as well as intuition doesn't hold up for various reasons.

I read that thread. I didn't see any evidence. The videos at the start completely ignore the compression and "carrying" of the golf ball in the direction of the swing path. The physics diagram with the normal force N completely ignores the compression (and friction) between ball/clubface. The pool ball example is even worse: pool balls do go on non-tangential lines all the time. It's called "throw" and happens when pool balls are a little dirtier - they "stick" just a teeny bit more.

If I line up parallel left of a target perfectly and my club head is positioned perfectly square to the target *not swing path* and I come from a couple degrees inside will the ball start right and have draw spin?

You keep asking these questions, but they make absolutely no sense. You come from a couple of degrees inside of WHAT?

Your feet are pointed left. Your clubface is open relative to your stance and pointing at the hole. Coming from the "inside" of your stance could mean that, relative to the face, you're coming from the inside, square, or the outside. We don't know, and you haven't told us. You could hit a draw, a straight ball, or a fade from what you've told us. Again, a hook is caused when the clubface is closed relative to the swing path. It's that simple.

[Zeph]

It does not matter to the ball where your feet aim. The only thing the ball reacts to is the swing path of the club and the position of the clubface relative to the swing path. You can aim left all you want, if you still come from the inside relative to the target line with a square clubface relative to the target line, the ball will start right and spin back against the target line.

Don't mind where the feet point, it is irrelevant to this discussion since you can swing out-to-in, square and in-to-out relative to the target line regardless of where the feet aim.

[shortstop20]

I read that thread. I didn't see any evidence. The videos at the start completely ignore the compression and "carrying" of the golf ball in the direction of the swing path. The physics diagram with the normal force N completely ignores the compression (and friction) between ball/clubface.

Correct.

Using english also effects the "throw" of the ball.

[Williamevanl]

I was just pointing out that there was 77 pages of other people arguing about this sort of thing. I said BS examples and 'evidence' clearly the '' meant I wasn't saying anybody over there had the answers I was looking for. I was just making the point that there is obviously some disagreement on the issue so I don't feel bad for not totally understanding it.

You asked what I mean by inside, or inside to what. I think I mean the target line. I realize that I can come from over the top or outside of the ball and I can come from inside the line. Why can't I use the target line as a reference? It's a line, it can be measured. My feet are parallel left, my club is square on the target line at impact and my club face comes from inside that target line.

I don't know what you are looking for here. Its a line! The club can come from one side of it or another to varying degrees. You are freaking me out Iacus. I know you know what I'm talking about. Jeezy Chrizzy!

They say on tv all the time "He came in to far from the inside" What the hell do they mean?
If someone said you were taking the club to far to the inside would you freak out on them saying you didn't know what they were talking about? "Inside to what my club path, my stance line, the target line?!?!"

There are dozens of websites online that just call it coming in from the inside or under plane I guess in some cases. Maybe that will work? There is some sort of perfect plane the club can be on, I mean under that plane.

If I had more time he'd be wearing a I hate Iacas T-shirt :)

[iacas]

If I had more time he'd be wearing a I hate Iacas T-shirt :)

Smiley or not, "hate" is a strong word.

Look, you said "inside" without giving a reference line, which could have been one of two: 1) inside the target line or 2) inside the foot line, which you took pains to point out was left. Thus, if he was coming inside of that line - the foot line - he could be square, inside, or outside the target line depending on how far left he was aimed and how far inside he was coming. You needed to say "inside the target line." I and others made that pretty clear. It's irrelevant what his foot line is. Most people adjust their stance and swing down their stance line. It's easier than adjusting your clubhead path as you seem to want this fictitious golfer to do. Balls hook or fade (or go straight) based on the relationship between swing path and clubface angle. Closed face relative to path = hook. I've answered the question several times now. And now I'm done. You've offered nothing new here.

[Williamevanl]

Alright I understand what you are saying and yea I get that its easier to adjust your stance and swing down your stance line but it has always seemed to me that a lot of pro golfers tend to come from a ways inside that target line and I just wanted to get to the bottom of what they are doing when they do that. Are they closing the face opening the face or leaving it square at the target line to get the desired ball flight.

I'm fascinated with a certain shot shape, this one

And I have spent 100's of hours trying to not only consistently do it but also to understand how its done. I don't want to change my stance as it isn't required although it makes it easier. I want to be able to line up parallel left of target or even open to it and hit a push draw back at the target. Thats it.

[Zeph]

Then you'll have to develop a swing where you swing from in-to-out while keeping the clubhead square. Many have this as their basic shot. I'd rather have mine to be square and the ball going straight. That way it's easier to shape shots both ways. If my natural swingpath was in-to-out, adjusting to hit a fade would be harder than if my natural was square. I've actually developed a swingpath slightly in-to-out, but that's because I've been working on getting rid of my swing over the top, which I accomplished.

[laxbballgolf]

I was gone for the weekend without internet, but these responses helped me understand what happens a lot better. Thanks Iacas and everyone else.

If you guys don't mind, I'd like to ask one last question specifically about the direction the ball starts flying in (as in: if I need to hook this ball around a tree, should I point the swing path or the clubface to the right of the tree?)

If I understand correctly, the answer is:

The initial direction of the ball flight is somewhere between the swingpath and clubface angle, with the amount varying based on many variables including swing speed and club loft. Swingpath plays a bigger role at higher swing speeds and lower lofts, while clubface angle plays a bigger role at slower swing speeds and higher lofts, and it is basically a sliding scale across the range of swing speeds and clubs.

Is this correct?

Again, this is not a question about what causes sidespin (we all agree: a clubface that is closed or open relative to swingpath), but a question specifically about the initital direction of the ball flight for a curved shot.

I realize that working the ball is an issue of feel and practice, because it is effectively impossible to know the precise clubface angle at impact by observing with the naked eye or anything like that. I would just like to know the science behind it, as well. Thanks, everyone.

[iacas]

The

Yup. You got it.