Handicaped Tournaments

[Parker0065]

Sounds like a hussle to me.

I called my brother(a scratch player for years) the other day and he just laughed and said yes, you got hussled by a sandbag expert. He had a better story than mine. For years he played in a work league and he was the only scratch player and his partner was a 5 handicap. They were by far the best two golfers out there but never won the Championship due to the handicap system, and how it was abused. The team that won every year were two older gentleman that were both 25 handicapers on paper. My brother told me a typical match with them would go like this. If one of them hit a good drive and aproach shot to the green the other one would start slapping it around until they got a 10. The next hole they would alternate and the guy that just made a 10 would make par while the other guy slapped it around for a 10. This way they could easily win most the holes while keeping each of thier handicaps nice and fat. I couldn't have played in a league like that because after about three holes of that garbage someone would have gotten punched,,lol!!!

[R7Player]

Sounds like a complete sandbagger. ie: hiding how good he is
so he can take your money. It's unethical and just wrong. He
probably doesn't turn in a correct score at his local pro shop.
He birdies holes and will mark par on his scorecard to look average.

[Chief Broom]

I also know for fact that certain conditions suit the higher handicappers. A guy who plays with us, 70 years old or so, often wins with 40 + stableford pts. He is straight (not long), can putt really well and NEVER gets in trouble. Plays off 26. 2 strokes on most holes. Par 5s, 4 shots to the green, 2 putts and net birdie. almost every time. Occasional par and that is net eagle.

If this guy regularly plays like you say then he's a bogey golfer and I'd have to call BS on his handicap being at 26. Heck I'm a bogey golfer at a course with a really low rating (68.1 116) and my handicap is 14.1! My scoring average is 87 and on my index right now is a 79 with everything else being used from 85 and below. What you've described puts him at high 80's-90 shooter and that would have to generate a handicap below 20?

I'm not calling you out but it sounds like a lot of people are doing things to maintain a handicap higher than it should be. Maybe they always play from the forward tees so that the lower rating artificially keeps their handicap high, I don't know?

+4.....WTF spend a fair amount of time working on that swing I guess.

He made it to his area's sectional qualifier for the US Open...

Says something about how good it takes to advance beyond regional qualifiers and what it takes to make it past sectionals!

[Fourputt]

I called my brother(a scratch player for years) the other day and he just laughed and said yes, you got hussled by a sandbag expert. He had a better story than mine.

To be honest, he was stupid to play in such a format. That sort of shenanigans can only occur in a straight better ball type of format. Play with a scoring system which requires the use of BOTH players scores, and those guys are going to drown themselves. In my club's partner better ball matches, we use a point system. 2 points possible on each hole. We score the lowest ball of the best ball on each team, and the lowest ball of the worst ball on each team. (On the 3rd hole, Team A scores 4 and 6. Team B scores 3 and 7 Team B gets one point for their 3 vs. Team A's 4, and Team A gets one point for their 6 vs. Team B's 7). Any attempt to play such as described in the above quote would simply result in the sandbaggers losing the point for high best ball every time.

Anyone who would take play in a company league seriously is deluding himself anyway. I've never seen one yet which had anyone assigned with the responsibility for oversight on rules or handicap honesty.

[jaragon126]

Why would anyone be posting a score in match play when you don't actually have a "score" as such? It is not stroke play, and with conceded putts of any length, it is not possible to have a score, only a result in the match. I have never heard of match play events where people think of it in terms of a score, rather than a result, like 2 and 1 or 1 up.

We post ALL of our scores ... whether they are Match Play or Stroke Play. Our league requires that we post all scores ... not sure how other leagues work.

If we didn't putt out on a hole because we were given the putt by the opponent, then you count what you would have made on that hole. Most of the time we just count that putt since it's not like we are giving each other 10 foot putts on the hole.

[DeanS]

In our work club we play 11 tournaments a year. The last three are for the club championship. We have a guy who last year won 5-7 of the 11 events plus the club championship (I won gross score ). And he is well on the way to doing the same this year having won the first of the championship tournaments and several previous events.

What he says is that he only plays once per month. With handicapping being the best 10 of the last 20 games, my guy is effectively 2 years behind with his index. I play and post upwards of 3-6 times a month, that puts my index current to within 2 months.

This is a serious problem because the competition is no longer felt to be fair. And that puts the future of the club at risk. I don't feel like this guy is delibertly sandbagging but I think the club needs to go to a best 1 of 5 or best 2 of 7 handicapping system to level the playing field.

[mdl]

Yeah that's crap. I keep my own handicap (fully legit, I just wrote a little program to do it myself), and I haven't entered my scores recently, so my posted handicap's probably a little low right now, I've been struggling with some swing changes.

But, I've been down in the 11s before, and I've never broken 80. I guess that makes me more consistent than some (when I'm not undergoing swing changes), but a handicap that high and a score in the low-mid 70s is either the round of the guy's life or some serious sandbagging.

[Fourputt]

Yeah that's crap. I keep my own handicap (fully legit, I just wrote a little program to do it myself), and I haven't entered my scores recently, so my posted handicap's probably a little low right now, I've been struggling with some swing changes.

That is spoken like someone who is living in a fantasy. The lowest my cap has been this year is 11.1 (back at the beginning of the season), and the highest is 12.4, but I have had 4 rounds below 80. While it's uncommon, it is NOT that unusual. I compete in a Men's Club at a public course...the club has 220 members, and at the 11-13 index level it is fairly common for guys to post rounds in the 70's, both for tournament scores and casual rounds for handicap. Only 1 of my 4 rounds in the 70's was a tournament score. The others were from casual play and got me nothing but a warm feeling and a lower handicap.

And I keep an official handicap on the GHIN system (where anyone can look it up and verify it), and I return at least 95% of my scores. The only scores that are not reported are those from pure practice rounds where the rules go out the window, or casual matches where we play pure match play and don't try to figure out the adjustments required for returning the scores. Even our club match play scores are returned for handicap, as set out in the GHIN system. I do play a lot of golf that isn't counted in the system because we can only return home scores from March through October. Winter rounds can't be used.

[Parker0065]

To be honest, he was stupid to play in such a format. That sort of shenanigans can only occur in a straight better ball type of format. Play with a scoring system which requires the use of BOTH players scores, and those guys are going to drown themselves. In my club's partner better ball matches, we use a point system. 2 points possible on each hole. We score the lowest ball of the best ball on each team, and the lowest ball of the worst ball on each team. (On the 3rd hole, Team A scores 4 and 6. Team B scores 3 and 7 Team B gets one point for their 3 vs. Team A's 4, and Team A gets one point for their 6 vs. Team B's 7). Any attempt to play such as described in the above quote would simply result in the sandbaggers losing the point for high best ball every time.

LOL,,,I think you missed the point! He never took the league as something serious. He played in it to hang out with his friends and drink a few beers. The only sandbaggers were the two old guy's. I guess because they were so old and they weren't playing for money nobody pushed the issue. For most of those guy's it was just about getting out of the house for a few hours and pounding a few brews.

Basically they just payed for thier greens fees and the winner got a little plastic trophy at the end of the year, no money was collected for any big prizes. The point was at what lengths some people will go to win, even a meaningless plastic trophy! Personally, I wouldn't take any League play seriously. In my 35 years of golf I have only played in one season on a League and that was a two man best ball with no handicaps and we won the Championship that year. If it would have been handicaped we probably would not have won. So if your that serious about golf that you would call someone stupid because they want to go hang out with thier friends for 9 holes a week then maybe you should try some more serious events like State Opens or the US Amatuer! Good Luck!

[sean_miller]

I've never played in a, "handicaped" tournament, but I'll bet this guy has.



PS. There are two Ps in "handicapped". Eric, feel free to delete this post, I think my point has been made.

[Fourputt]

LOL,,,I think you missed the point! He never took the league as something serious. He played in it to hang out with his friends and drink a few beers. The only sandbaggers were the two old guy's. I guess because they were so old and they weren't playing for money nobody pushed the issue. For most of those guy's it was just about getting out of the house for a few hours and pounding a few brews.

You didn't say any of that in your previous post. All you did was rant about the unfairness of it all, and how apparently upset you and you brother both were over the outcome. Now you say it didn't really matter and it was just a social thing. Had you stated that in the first place, I'd never even have responded.

Basically it's guys like you with the low single digit handicaps who always want to play everyone straight up. Of course you are going to win more than your share in such competitions... you're a better player than some 95% of the golfers in the world. I'll never be in your class, so I NEED the USGA handicap system to even have a chance to compete. And the system as set up is quite fair... as long as no one abuses it. In a well run club, with an active handicap committee (which my club is), abuses are detected and dealt with promptly. I think that every golfer who has ever competed at the club level has faced issues with sandbaggers. Usually when a club gets a reputation for zero tolerance, the problem solves itself because that sort of player knows that he won't get away with it.

[Yukari]

Basically I had a match today with a 13 handicap and had to give him 10 strokes. The match was a complete blowout. The guy shot 10 shots under his handicap and smoked me,,lol!

As a 10.8 handicapper, I can tell you he is a sandbagger--no questions! I often shoot in the mid to low 80's with many in the high 80's and some even in 90's. My best is 78 (couple of times this year).

A 13 handicapper can not shoot 74-75. He's a damn cheat just like a lot of sandbaggers out there.

[Fourputt]

As a 10.8 handicapper, I can tell you he is a sandbagger--no questions! I often shoot in the mid to low 80's with many in the high 80's and some even in 90's. My best is 78 (couple of times this year).

You are still not getting it. Just because you haven't done it doesn't mean that it can't be done. I shot a 73 while carrying a legitimate 16 handicap, so don't say that it's impossible. That 73 is still my lowest score ever, shot 20 years ago, and I've played to a handicap lower than 16 ever since without even equaling that.

The only way to truly smoke out a sandbagger is to track his tournament vs. casual play. It may take 6 or 7 tournaments to detect a skilled cheater. If he consistently trends lower in competitions by a significant margin, then you have something to be concerned about, and action should be taken to adjust his cap to his tournament scores. One exceptional score is NEVER a certain indicator of sandbagging.

[Yukari]

You are still not getting it. Just because you haven't done it doesn't mean that it can't be done. I shot a 73 while carrying a legitimate 16 handicap, so don't say that it's impossible. That 73 is still my lowest score ever, shot 20 years ago, and I've played to a handicap lower than 16 ever since without even equaling that.

I do get it. He said he shot 74-75. That's two consecutive rounds in the low to mid 70's. Have you shot 74-75 two days in a row carrying 16 handicap? I don't think so.

[Parker0065]

You didn't say any of that in your previous post. All you did was rant about the unfairness of it all, and how apparently upset you and you brother both were over the outcome. Now you say it didn't really matter and it was just a social thing. Had you stated that in the first place, I'd never even have responded.

Easy there chief,

You seem pretty upset? This whole thread was to blow off a little steam at first and to get others opinions, but if you look back at most of my posts they have a lot of LOL's in them because it was mostly "tongue in cheek". I clearly stated my brother laughed about it because he and I both know and understand that handicaped tournaments are not life and death. I never said he was upset about the outcome, you made that up. Also it gives people a chance to share thier experiences of situations like this. I thought a couple of the articles I found about odds of high handicaps shooting low and how the USGA charts and goes after sandbaggers were pretty interesting. Life is too short man, What little frustration I had the day I started this thread was long gone after that day! I'm happy for you that you found this awesome club with thier awesome handicap system so you guy's can get together and play your own little US Open,,,lol! That is exactly what the handicap system is meant to do. Good for you dude! I stated in one of my earlier posts that I blamed my club more than anything for not policing handicaps, but since I also stated that I would not be participating in any other handicap events, be it at your club or mine, it's a mute point! One thing you did say that I agree with is that most low handicap/scratch golfers would rather play someone straight up! Years of hard work and dedication go into it, it doesn't just happen overnight. The best match I had all year was against one of the best players in our region and a perennial qualifier in our State Open. We played straight up and I never really thought I had a chance. I honestly teed off on the first hole with the thought of just hoping not to get blown out! But I also have played in some State tournaments years ago and I drew on that experience. It was a match for the ages, we both combined made 13 birdies and I was 1 up going into 18. I put my aproach shot in a green side bunker and at first I was uneasy because although I use to be a excellent bunker player, it's one part of my game I don't put in enough practice these days. My opponent was on in regulation with a birdie putt to add to the pressure. I took a couple practice swings outside the bunker and just thought, you've done this a million times before, just trust your swing, no matter what happens, trust your swing. I trusted my swing and splashed it up there to 4 feet. We halved the hole and I wanted to collapse right there on the 18th green because I had not focused that hard for 18 holes in years,,lol! The sense of accomplishment I got out of winning that match was far greater than I could ever feel beating a 13 handicaper for the Championship! Finally I will share with you that after the match ended with the "13" handicaper, I shook his hand, congratulated him and told him he played great. He shook my hand and said "well yes but it was a handicap tournament". It took some of the sting out of the whole thing because I took it as a sign of respect. Nice of him to say even though he was a sandbagging dog,,,LOL!!!!

[Cussin hacker]

I think the gap between the low and high score's are bigger with high HC people. Myself I can shoot lights out one day and the next be 15 strokes higher. Lower HC folks don't seem to have such a diffrents between their highs and lows. My .02 on this anyway.

[Yukari]

I am a bit surprised that they don't handicap it at 80%. My club always limits handicap at 80% during match play tournaments. I think it makes sense since the higher handicapper's score usually can swing widely (no pun intended) from day to day whereas the lower handicapper's score varies only slightly (relatively speaking).

[Fourputt]

I think the gap between the low and high score's are bigger with high HC people. Myself I can shoot lights out one day and the next be 15 strokes higher. Lower HC folks don't seem to have such a diffrents between their highs and lows. My .02 on this anyway.

Bingo!!

This is why one or two low scores don't necessarily point to sandbagging. When there is more wiggle room there is more likelihood of a bigger swing from worst to best scores, and on a weekend when all the planets are aligned in your favor, anything can happen. I mentioned above that the first time I broke 80 I shot what is still my lowest ever score of 73. The next day I broke 80 again (77) made my first Ace, and generally had my best ever 2 consecutive days of golf. I continued to shoot from the mid 80's to the mid 70's for the next 10 years, with a few higher and lower thrown in for good measure. During that same period (it was in 1991) I also played the first 2 rounds of our club championship in 104-88, then came back the second weekend with 74-78. Some of us really are that inconsistent. Some days my head and my body just seem to have a better connection than they do on other days. It's something that I've never been able to get under control, so I just live with it.