Hogan vs. Stack and Tilt, an Exercise

[iacas]

Let's also stop using examples of Hogan when he was 127 years old, too, eh? I'm not sure that really helps much.

[tmarr]

Hogan is demonstrably not a Stack and Tilter. And shame on Bennett and Plummer for claiming that his method of hitting the ball supports their branded method. Go to this link of Hogan at his very peak:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXYWhqA50w8

at 7 min 26 sec. and diagram Hogan's swing. Draw a box around his head and trace his spine from his top shirt button down. Then watch in slow motion. He moves his head and his center (core) well right of where it was at address.

I appreciate the S&T; attempt to build on/explain the Mac O'Grady / TGM model (that's what it is) and I very much like that efficient move. I like other moves as well. But please...... Hogan does not demonstrate their thesis. He repudiates it.

ps: I doubt they would have invoke Hogan's name like this if he were alive.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by tmarr

Hogan is demonstrably not a Stack and Tilter. And shame on Bennett and Plummer for claiming that his method of hitting the ball supports their branded method.

Let's take a look:

Shoulder down - check.

Hands in - check.

Straighten* the right knee - check.

Arms straight - check.

Tuck hips - check.

* decrease the flex.

The last is "weight forward" and given that Hogan believed in a center shoulder turn and remaining fairly "stacked" from address through the backswing AND had one of the largest lateral moves to the left in the history of the game... I'm going to say "check" here as well. It's not perfect but it's pretty darn good. Consider the exaggerated pictures of Aaron Baddeley overlayed with Hogan from Five Lessons in the first post.

So, what part does he "demonstrably" not do, exactly? Mike and Andy did not make any such "claim" - but you are aware of the fact that S&T; came about from studying the swings of the greats (and the average) and boiling it down into the things the greats did that the average players didn't do. Hogan was one of the many greats they studied.

Originally Posted by tmarr

at 7 min 26 sec. and diagram Hogan's swing. Draw a box around his head and trace his spine from his top shirt button down. Then watch in slow motion. He moves his head and his center (core) well right of where it was at address.

The spine part is somewhat irrelevant because Hogan's hips move forward towards the end of his backswing. Additionally, you do know that S&T; is not "tilt towards the target" right?

And surely you know that it's relatively easy to find videos showing Hogan's head staying rock steady, right?

Troy Matteson has a similar spine tilt at the top too because his hips go forward as well (we call it a reverse hip slide):

You'll notice that Hogan's upper center is still "stacked" over the center of his stance. It has not drifted well to the right. His hips have started forward, like Troy's on the right. Is it perfect? No, Ben's head has twisted a bit and moved an inch. Troy's head has moved too. But we're talking about an inch or less in this video.

Originally Posted by tmarr

I appreciate the S&T; attempt to build on/explain the Mac O'Grady / TGM model (that's what it is)

Mac has several models (and S&T; isn't like his most famous, the "CP pattern"), and TGM has no "model" at all, it is almost literally every model.

Originally Posted by tmarr

But please...... Hogan does not demonstrate their thesis. He repudiates it.

Then explain the first post, or page 73 of Five Lessons where Hogan clearly shows a centered shoulder turn with his hips BEHIND his shoulder turn, NOT a shoulder turn in which his head drifts away from the target.

And that's the key point. Did Hogan's head drift off the ball a little bit (an inch or two) in some videos? Sure, and it didn't in some other videos. What he wrote clearly shows a centered shoulder turn.

Did Hogan do everything perfectly according to the model? No. Is he awfully close? You bet, particularly when you consider what he wrote in his Five Lessons about the centered shoulder turn. Again, the illustrations used in the mockup come right from the book.

FWIW, the centered head is primarily to help with contact, and even when Hogan's head went backwards an inch or two it always moved back forward that inch or two coming down (it also tended to drop slightly, particularly with the longer clubs), so impact and setup had his head in the same position.

If we had a student whose head moved two inches back and two inches forward every time and he had no contact issues, we wouldn't get him to stop. We wouldn't spend a second on it.

One more image just for the heck of it:

Happy to discuss it with you. I think you must have found this via a search or something, given that the last post prior to yours was from 2009!

[mvmac]

[Tom]

i just happened onto this post.

iacas... are you espousing S&T; or some specific swing methodology other than traditional back and thru? why? you seem to be defensive and authoritative only about your opinions, and not others. if you are saying that ben hogan stacked and tilted, that (in my opinion) is surely something that not many will share, regardless of picture evidence.

[Harmonious]

Hogan is perhaps the greatest ball striker in history.  He wrote perhaps the best golf instructional book ever.  Over fifty years after his playing days, he is still the model for players and many instructors.  With his mystique, It is quite natural that instructors of whatever methodology would want to claim that they teach using Hogan's fundamentals.  It's good for business.  It adds immediate legitimacy.

I wouldn't blame S&T; any more than Haney or Ballard or Hardy.  They, and many others, have used Hogan as a model for a part of their instruction.  But it should not be inferred that "Hogan was a stack and tilter" or Hogan was a "back and thru golfer".  He was unique, one of a kind.  He did not fit in anyone's methodology except his own.

[Tom]

harmonious...

well said... hogan was unique... hogan was not a stack and tilter... hogan was [perhaps] the best ball striker in history...

thx/tom

[JetFan1983]

FYI: Stack and tilt is an analysis as to what the best ball strikers in history did. They studied what guys like Hogan, Snead, Johnny Miller, etc. did and then built the pattern based on the common traits. They then looked at a bunch of high handicappers, and saw what those guys had in common to be able to demonstrate to students what makes a player either a great ballstriker or a bad one.

That's how the pattern was first developed, with influences from Mac O'Grady and TGM thrown in, among some others.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Tom

iacas... are you espousing S&T; or some specific swing methodology other than traditional back and thru? why? you seem to be defensive and authoritative only about your opinions, and not others. if you are saying that ben hogan stacked and tilted, that (in my opinion) is surely something that not many will share, regardless of picture evidence.

I don't know what you mean by "traditional back and through." What does that mean? To me, either nobody swings the golf club "back and through" or everyone does, depending on how you personally define it.

And how could I be authoritative (or defensive, which has a different connotation than you may have intended) about someone else's opinions?

I'm saying that Hogan did a lot of the S&T; pattern. I'm saying that among the many things he did, a centered shoulder turn without a whole lot of swaying off the golf ball is one of them. I'm saying that Hogan is attributed with a "Reverse K" position but it's not because his head moved back on the takeaway, but because his hips started forward so early in his backswing.

Hogan's Five Fundamentals clearly depicts a centered shoulder turn. He does the other pieces really well, too.

I cannot and never have defined what makes a golfer "an S&T; golfer" over one who isn't. Subtle variations of the definition could shift 100 PGA Tour players from being maybe 1 of them to being 80 of them. After all, the basics are, again, "weight forward, shoulder down, hands in, straighten leg, arms straight, tuck hips." Must all of those be done perfectly to be S&T;? No. Most PGA Tour pros do all of those, and always have, to varying degrees. Hogan did them more than most modern pros, who for a time translated off the ball and/or set up with a lot of spine tilt at setup, making it difficult for the amateur to control low point.

Nicklaus, for example, did a lot of the pieces of S&T.; That doesn't mean I'm claiming that Nicklaus or Hogan were S&T; golfers.

Originally Posted by Harmonious

It's good for business.  It adds immediate legitimacy. I wouldn't blame S&T; any more than Haney or Ballard or Hardy.

That implies that I'm tossing his name about as a way of tricking people or misguiding them, and I don't think that's the case at all. I've specifically limited this discussion to the top of the backswing position, and shown how even in Aaron Baddeley's exaggerated photos, they line up pretty well with Hogan, because many think Hogan translated off the ball.

Why blame anyone? The best method would be to do some thinking of your own, ask some questions, and see where things shake out. If you think I'm wrong, tell me and support your answer. I'm not just making claims to trick people. I'm putting ideas out there so that people can discuss them. If the result of that discussion is that my ideas change, and people learn more about the golf swing, I'm all for it.

Originally Posted by Harmonious

But it should not be inferred that "Hogan was a stack and tilter" or Hogan was a "back and thru golfer".

And I don't believe I've done that. Or at least I hope not... partly because I've never defined what a "stack and tilt golfer" is. To some he may be, to others he may not be.

Originally Posted by JetFan1983

FYI: Stack and tilt is an analysis as to what the best ball strikers in history did. They studied what guys like Hogan, Snead, Johnny Miller, etc. did and then built the pattern based on the common traits. They then looked at a bunch of high handicappers, and saw what those guys had in common to be able to demonstrate to students what makes a player either a great ballstriker or a bad one.

Yeah. Mac O'Grady has a pattern that he will tell you that it's 80% Hogan and 20% Snead. Now Mac is not going to go around pretending it's the opposite or "taking credit" for Hogan's swing, but rather gives credit to Hogan and learned from him.

Mike and Andy studied Hogan among many, many others, and boiled down the essential elements to the swing. That's all. Heck, Arnold Palmer did a lot of the things nearly as well as Ben Hogan, some a little better some a little worse... and it's unfortunate more people don't use Arnold Palmer's swing model or hold it up for study or high regard, because if you do truly look at it, he does a lot of what I like to see.

[saevel25]

Though this forum does promote Stack and Tilt, i take it more as golf's version of mythbusters.. There way to bust the myths is through biometric study of the greatest golfers, and that accumilation of data is S&T.; Can someone learn 100% of S&T;, yea, but i believe that takes a very unique person, because everybody has there own swing, and someone might comfortably get there. But if an area of S&T; can better explain to me an issue i haved and i can fix it, that works.

[Harmonious]

Maybe it's because I hold Hogan in such high esteem that I have a problem with anyone trying to fit his swing into their "box", if you will.  There are things that he did that you could say fit into anyone's teaching method.  And, as Erik states, most good players do the same thing.

I do feel, however, that the original idea of this thread was to show how similar Hogan's swing was to S&T.; And some people disagreed with that idea.  I have no opinion one way or another, as I have not read one word of a S&T; book, or looked at one minute of a S&T; DVD, except for those god-awful commercials on the Golf Channel. And while I don't think there is any attempt at "tricking" people, one would have to admit that including Hogan's name with any teaching method adds immediate legitimacy to it.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Harmonious

I do feel, however, that the original idea of this thread was to show how similar Hogan's swing was to S&T.;

The original idea of the thread was to show that Hogan believed in a centered shoulder turn as opposed to a "Reverse K" via upper-body translation, and that S&T; is not as "radical" as some people think.

[Mr. Desmond]

Originally Posted by iacas

Quote:

Originally Posted by Harmonious

I do feel, however, that the original idea of this thread was to show how similar Hogan's swing was to S&T.;

The original idea of the thread was to show that Hogan believed in a centered shoulder turn as opposed to a "Reverse K" via upper-body translation, and that S&T; is not as "radical" as some people think.

Thanks for your point.

I believe some people get caught up in labels, and as I've heard P&B; say, they began getting flack when GD placed the label of "Stack and Tilt" on their instruction/analysis/method. What we see, sometimes, is people losing their objectivity for the sake of attacking a label.

[Tom]

Here's what I think about this 'trying to pigeon hole some of the "old school" great golfers as possibly S&T;' subject...

First: I'm a serious golfer... My low round this past season was 66 (a couple of 67s, a few 68s and plenty of 69s, etal). I play golf at minimum 5 times per week (can't now because of horrific snow storm), and practice like a devil.

• I hold Ben Hogan in the highest esteem, as I do a tad bit more Jack Nicklaus.
• I have read just about everything about the above two golfers.
• In the book "My Story" Jack Nicklaus refers to Ben Hogan as [paraphrasing] "...the greatest player tee to green as has ever played the game" and he made that statement after having played with Ben Hogan at a US Open when Hogan was in his 50's. He also added that at that age Hogan hated to putt, and as result couldn't compete.
• I have never heard of a reverse K swing and don't even know what that might be, nor do I care to know - it seems ridiculous to me - a swing is a swing... where does the golf ball go and if it is on target can you do it consistently?
• I have never read one word about S&T;
• I have never seen one minute of a S&T; training video
• When I see the "you gotta try this swing" ad on TV I think not one of the S&T; fellows on that commercial has won anything compared to the traditional swingers of the golf club (please don't try and spin my statement "traditional swingers of the golf club" because everyone knows there's a difference in "traditional" and stack and tilt)
• Of my regular playing partners, one is a S&T; golfer. He's a strong man, and a talented putter. On all his full shots, especially his woods, his front favored swing places too much backspin on the ball and as result he sometimes gets ballooning shots that he can't control as compared to me. His backspin sometimes turns to sidespin (especially penalizing in strong wind) and he finds the rough when I'm in the fairway. This doesn't diminish his ability to play the game. However, in competition the couple or few shots he loses control of because of spin are his death nail because I'm controlling my ball from the tee or onto that long par 5. (yeah, i can hear you now "he's not playing the right golf ball..." - he does play the right golf ball - ProV1x - the s&t; swing puts a lot of power (arguably ALL of his power) onto the ENTIRE front side and as result the impact with a low lofted club WILL result in more spin than a traditional swing (upper body stays back while the power of the lower body slides and unwinds everything forward).

What i think would be a bit more fascinating to everyone here would be an analysis of winners, and/or statistical leaders, on any tour that are touting the S&T; swing vs. all others. What are Dean Wilson, Charlie Wi, and the other guys on that commercial doing?  PS I played a Nationwide Tour Qualifier last year and Axley was also trying to qualify...

If S&T; was a "game changer" wouldn't all the up and comers (graduates from Nationwide, Q-school grads) be swinging with it? Yes... so why aren't they??? It's not for everyone, it's not a game changer... It might be a scheme/scam to sell product and make a couple/few guys a few bucks... AND THERE'S NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT!!! Everyone's got to make a living...

Ok, let the multi-quote spin begin...

[Mr. Desmond]

Originally Posted by Tom

Here's what I think about this 'trying to pigeon hole some of the "old school" great golfers as possibly S&T;' subject...

Of my regular playing partners, one is a S&T; golfer. He's a strong man, and a talented putter. On all his full shots, especially his woods, his front favored swing places too much backspin on the ball and as result he sometimes gets ballooning shots that he can't control as compared to me. His backspin sometimes turns to sidespin (especially penalizing in strong wind) and he finds the rough when I'm in the fairway. This doesn't diminish his ability to play the game. However, in competition the couple or few shots he loses control of because of spin are his death nail because I'm controlling my ball from the tee or onto that long par 5. (yeah, i can hear you now "he's not playing the right golf ball..." - he does play the right golf ball - ProV1x - the s&t; swing puts a lot of power (arguably ALL of his power) onto the ENTIRE front side and as result the impact with a low lofted club WILL result in more spin than a traditional swing (upper body stays back while the power of the lower body slides and unwinds everything forward).

What i think would be a bit more fascinating to everyone here would be an analysis of winners, and/or statistical leaders, on any tour that are touting the S&T; swing vs. all others. What are Dean Wilson, Charlie Wi, and the other guys on that commercial doing?  PS I played a Nationwide Tour Qualifier last year and Axley was also trying to qualify...

If S&T; was a "game changer" wouldn't all the up and comers (graduates from Nationwide, Q-school grads) be swinging with it? Yes... so why aren't they??? It's not for everyone, it's not a game changer... It might be a scheme/scam to sell product and make a couple/few guys a few bucks... AND THERE'S NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT!!! Everyone's got to make a living...

Take a look. This video interview may answer your questions.

http://www.charlierose.com/view/interview/10775

[JetFan1983]

Originally Posted by Tom

I have never read one word about S&T;

Originally Posted by Tom

I have never seen one minute of a S&T; training video

And yet you've somehow managed to postulate this conclusion:

Originally Posted by Tom

It might be a scheme/scam to sell product and make a couple/few guys a few bucks... AND THERE'S NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT!!! Everyone's got to make a living...

If you tried to write a book report on a book you've never read before, you'd have a hard time writing anything worth anyone's time.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Tom

I have never read one word about S&T;

No multiquotes. Just that little bitty one right there.

If the above is true, then why are you in this thread discussing it? Carry on with whatever misconceptions you seem to have and be done with it. If you're not willing to engage in an actual discussion, don't come on here and huff and puff with nothing to say.

As for your friend, he's not doing it properly. There's nothing inherent in S&T; that leads to a steeper angle of descent and thus more backspin. And backspin can't "turn into" sidespin, sorry.

Edit, sorry: The problem with any sort of statistical analysis is that it doesn't account for "talent" (i.e. Tiger could probably win majors moving 14 inches off the golf ball and 20 inches coming through) nor the fact that the swing is a fraction of what it takes to succeed on the PGA Tour (putting, short game, mental toughness, course management, etc.).

[cbrian]