"Deep" Hands Explained (or "Depth")

[iacas]

Zeph or Iacas, would you say Charlie at p4 here is above the middle of the bicep?

At P4 yes, but that's appropriate. The hands will be roughly on the same plane as the shoulders at P4, and since the top of your arm is attached to your shoulder....

Oh and at P3 is the ideal hand position more or less where Charlie is?

For a one-plane swing, yes.

Also curious about the difference between driver and wedge. The wedge should be steeper and less deep than the driver because the club is shorter, right?

I answered this already didn't I? Yes. The plane is steeper with a wedge. Relative to parts of your body you still pass the same checkpoints, but the checkpoints are oriented in a steeper plane (because you're bent over more).

True. it just looked like his divot was pointing left of his target line. He does look like he's set up pretty square.

The green is well to the left in this image. He didn't pull it.

Deep Hands Drill

[boogielicious]

Thanks for the drill Eric. Went to the gym at lunch and worked on this.

One question on the plane for wedge vs. driver: Is the plane steeper because of the starting point at set up or am I taking the driver to a lower point at the top? My hands for the wedge are almost straight down at set up. My hands for the driver are a little further out from my body, maybe 1/2 hand width. If I take them back to the same point, the wedge path would be a bit steeper.

Thanks in advance.

[Zeph]

Thanks for the drill Eric. Went to the gym at lunch and worked on this.

It is steeper because the wedge is shorter and you are more bent forward. The swingpath angle is determined by the angle of your upper body at address, because we swing at the same inclination to the ground and the arc moves around this angle.

The hands should be more away from your body with a driver than a wedge, it is how you set up to the ball. I like pictures. Note that the camera angle is a bit different here, sitting lower, so the angles and checkpoints are a bit off.

[melchior]

I finally incorporated this *correctly* into my game the other day and I hit the two best drives of my life. One even went about 260 to carry! It still is weird to feel it that "deep" when it really is more comfortable to do it the right way anyways.

[MJP]

After a little over a week practicing, deep hands are feeling much more natural. I'd say I'm 40-50% of the way to making it something I don't have to think about. My waggle includes a p2 check so I can get that feeling right before I make the swing. But hopefully one day I'll get it down as my natural backswing.

I am even starting to make my chips/pitches with deep hands, which feels a little more natural than full swing since it's just to p2 or a little more for short game shots. I feel much more coiled at the top now due to a flatter shoulder and arms parallel to shoulders at P4.

I am having trouble holding the wrist cock and hitting down on the ball, especially with the shorter irons when using deep hands. I've hit some of the most solids shot this way, but 90% are thin or a little heavy. Coming so inside I feel like I can't hit down as much. Any reason that might be? I might just need more reps and to use a 60 40 stack and tilt weight distribution. Usually it feels pretty much 50/50. Using more weight on the left foot is helping as well, but a lot of the time I am getting a very low ball flight even when I take a good divot.

Driver feels good with deep hands. Some straight shots and some draws. Very few fades.

[mvmac]

This was something I had to do in a major way. My trip to Erie really helped me cement the feel on how to do this. Dave attached two driveway shafts together and made sure I had to swing under them, like this,

This was taken about a month ago and it is getting more and more "natural". This drill has also forced my shoulders to turn steeper, which to me is essential to getting the hands deep.

Erik and Zeph, just curious to get your opinions. Do you think the hands getting deep turns the shoulders steep or do the shoulders turning steep get the hands deep? I'm sure it changes from player to player, but I would say for most, getting the shoulders to turn perpendicular to the spine will have the hands do what we want.

[iacas]

Erik and Zeph, just curious to get your opinions. Do you think the hands getting deep turns the shoulders steep or do the shoulders turning steep get the hands deep? I'm sure it changes from player to player, but I would say for most, getting the shoulders to turn perpendicular to the spine will have the hands do what we want.

The two go hand in hand. If you turn the shoulders flat you'll tend to lift them. Conversely, someone who turns the shoulders too steep will often get the hands to a position where they're below the right shoulder.

It's simply in how the arms are connected to the body, and how they tend to want to steer the club. If you put your left arm across your chest, for example,with a really flat shoulder turn, the club would be incredibly laid off and the weight of the clubhead would be obvious. It also wouldn't feel like a "full turn," hence why people lift. People with shoulders that are too steep are rare, but often if they're trying to get depth they'll get "too much" relative to their shoulders. But that's really rare.

[stacks04]

Erik, based on the video a couple posts above mine with the driveway stakes you had used on an angle, can you provide some specifics of what angle to have them in the ground and how far away the ball has to be from them to use it properly. To me based on the video the sticks appear to be about 30* ball forward about 6" and left of the sticks about a foot. All based on the view from the video. Thanks

[sean_miller]

Interesting. When I read the term "deep hands" in an older book I took it to mean at the top of the backswing, the hands were deep relative to the COG. The farther left the hands moved (eventually crossing the COG and appcoaching a line directly over the left foot) the deeper they were.

[iacas]

Erik, based on the video a couple posts above mine with the driveway stakes you had used on an angle, can you provide some specifics of what angle to have them in the ground and how far away the ball has to be from them to use it properly. To me based on the video the sticks appear to be about 30* ball forward about 6" and left of the sticks about a foot. All based on the view from the video. Thanks

Just stick 'em in the ground about like Mike has 'em in his video. They should be outside and behind the ball (so you can still swing) and should pass through the upper part of your right shoulder (an inch or two outside of it). You can see in the video that if Mike lifted his arms off his chest how he'd feel like he'd run into the sticks (and if he lifted them a lot, he actually would hit them).

[mvmac]

Just stick 'em in the ground about like Mike has 'em in his video. They should be outside and behind the ball (so you can still swing) and should pass through the upper part of your right shoulder (an inch or two outside of it). You can see in the video that if Mike lifted his arms off his chest how he'd feel like he'd run into the sticks (and if he lifted them a lot, he actually would hit them).

When I first started doing this drill I was swinging at half speed to make sure I was ingraining the feel. Erik is spot on with where to place the shafts but you can start with it a little more upright and work up to making it more shallow.

[stacks04]

Thanks guys, I will be making a trip to the home depot this weekend. My biggest issue right now is getting over the thought process when actually playing. Its a mind game. When at the range I do very good just swinging and adjusting to get things right.

[Zeph]

Thanks guys, I will be making a trip to the home depot this weekend. My biggest issue right now is getting over the thought process when actually playing. Its a mind game. When at the range I do very good just swinging and adjusting to get things right.

It's individual how people like to play, but I enjoy having a swing thought when I'm playing too, not just on the range. It's a good way to get a change ingrained faster. Some like to empty their head when playing, or just having the shot in mind. I usually got one or two swing thoughts at all times. I am working on something that improve my swing, so if I do it correctly it should work out for the better on my round.

There are some steps in changing a part of your swing. 1) Identify the problem 2) Find the probable cause 3) Find a good way to work on it 4) Make sure you do it correctly 5) Repetition, repetition, repetition 6) Check that you are still doing it correctly 7) Repetition, repetition, repetition Once it has become ingrained and it happens without you thinking about it, you have made good progress. Even at that point it is wise to re-check it every now and then to see that it is holding up.

[stacks04]

Yeah zeph, thats my issue, I do good with my thought process then I flub one shot and its in my mind for multiple holes after that now. Every part of my swing goes through my head and I confuse myself. Then by luck I hit a good shot and I gain some confidence and viola I can hit the ball again. This whole brain thought process thing needs to go:)

[mvmac]

7) Repetition, repetition, repetition

Exactly, got to put the reps in. Your kind of re-wiring your brain to move your body in a different way. It should feel exagerrated for a while, because when you play, it won't be as good on the course as it is on the range.

When I'm playing I do kind of a Mike Weir/Colt Knost practice backswing waggle to just get the feel right before I hit it.

[MJP]

The two go hand in hand. If you turn the shoulders flat you'll tend to lift them. Conversely, someone who turns the shoulders too steep will often get the hands to a position where they're below the right shoulder.

That would mean a lead arm shallower than parallel to the shoulder line, right? Would this cause too much of an inside out swing?

Today at the range I was hitting a lot of straight draws/hooks and pull draws/hooks. The fact that it was curving right to left at all is proving I am swinging in to out. However, I didn't just take some time to think about the ball flight laws and why this was happening until the low end of the bucket. I decided to weaken my left hand grip so the club at address was slightly open (maybe 5 degrees). Right after I did that, I hit a push draw. The right to left turn was IDEAL and not 20-40y like before due to a smaller difference between swing path and clubface angle. Weakening my left hand grip (opening the club at address) served the dual purpose of hitting a push as well as decreasing the amount of right to left turn in the shot. I was so happy after that. I can't wait to put in some more work...and get an actual video camera. edit: to be honest, I think my left hand grip has been too strong since the beginning. I used to have the line on the grip resting under the crease between my left thumb and left index finger. With a more weakened grip than I am used to, the line on the grip is underneath the left thumb.

[Zeph]

I know from personal experience that it can be difficult to see the real ball flight when you are hitting a shot. Identifying subtle differences in the initial direction of the ball. I'm hitting on a simulator from time to time, and it was there I noticed the ball contacted the screen left of where I was aiming, and the screen is 2 yards from where I hit the ball. Took a look at my grip and I've been using a strong right hand grip, and closing the clubface. Once I got the right hand closer to neutral, things started straight again.

If you have a screen or something you can hit at, it is a good way to see where the ball starts out. If not, have someone stand behind the ball when you are hitting and watch closely the initial direction of the ball. I thought I was coming too far in-to-out because I was hooking everything. When I get the clubface square or slightly open now, it's a nice draw.

My point is that while working on changing the swing path, keep focus on your grip and clubface so you know where the ball starts out. If you are unable to spot a 5-10º difference in clubface angle, the ball flight may trick you into thinking something is wrong with the swingpath.

[boogielicious]

Doing half swing punch shots will help you see where the starting direction is. Dave W. had me do this deep hands drill at the Boston S&T.; The ball goes out slower so it is easier to see direction and flight. I try to warm up at the range by doing this drill first.