Advice I Hate: "Release the Club"

[iacas]

However, I would argue that what you think you will be doing with your arms and wrists in following through or releasing probably does influence their motion before the ball is contacted.

Yes, and that's precisely where most amateurs screw this up. The typical pro holds off the release as long as possible, but the amateur DOES start to try to "close" or "square up" or "roll the wrists" prior to impact. That leads to a low pull-slice and an over-the-top move.

Think of this way, too: if you're rolling your wrists over each other, how awesome must your timing be to get that correct every time? The better method is to simply maintain the same rotation relative to your shoulders, torso, etc. FAR more consistent, and if the release happens when the club shaft gets to parallel, well, that's late enough. Most pros still have lag when they get to parallel past impact.

When driving, if I concentrate on holding or blocking my release and move the ball back in my stance, I always fade or push the ball.

I'll borrow a line from the video, paraphrased: the best push-drawers of the ball hit the ball with the clubface open and their hands well ahead of the ball with no active release of the clubhead.

And what you think you may be doing, you might not be doing. If you push the ball, great - that's what you need to do in order to hit a push-draw. Get your club working more from the inside instead and you're right there. And why move the ball back in your stance? You'll tend to be more inside the further back you go but you'll also have less time to get the clubface closer to square or, preferably (if you want to hit a push-draw), slightly open.

If I move the ball slightly forward and concentrate on really exaggerating the release, I always pull, draw, or hook the ball.

Of course you pull it. Watch the video I posted (and will again below). It only makes sense.

Maybe the problem is just semantics. Some people are stuck in a golf swing that is always blocked with only a partial follow-through. Whether you tell them to follow through or "release" the club, the desired end result is the same. And it will make a difference.

I disagree. I think the semantics are so screwed up in terms of how the average golfer interprets them - as is the whole concept to begin with - that this one should go the way of the dodo.

is that you in the video? if so, the bald guy?

My name isn't Dave or Steve.

is this a spot for stack and tilt?

It is, but that's irrelevant. 95% of what S&T; teaches applies to all golf swings, because S&T; itself evolved from the study of the best golfers in the world and what separates them from the average golfers.

The best push-drawers of the golf ball, through history, don't release the club. They hit the ball with an open clubface and a swing that's more from the inside than the clubface is open: resulting in a push-draw. Biomechanically, you can't "release" the club until the club is extended away from you. If you maintain the angle between your right forearm and the clubshaft, or "lag" as some people might call it, it's virtually impossible to "release" the clubhead by rolling your wrists over. Try it. In order to roll the right wrist over the top of the left wrist while you still have what S&T; would call the "flying wedge," your right shoulder will jut out and you'll come way off the plane and over the top. And it'll feel really awkward.

and did you do that video just to argue against "turning your hands?"

Dave and Steve did the video because it's a

flaw they see commonly. "Release the clubhead" is nothing more than a quick fix that tends to make the student WORSE but which may work in the short term because it can turn a push-slice into a pull-slice, which at least might stay on the golf course.

if so, ok... don't mean to begrudge you my friend but i'd rather listen to haney, harmon, etc., on how they desribe the "release" which is correct.

Great, listen to them, but realize that they're using the words differently than others. I've included a few pictures from the Haney and Hogan videos you posted. They're talking about releasing the lag, not rolling their wrists over. These are two very different movements. In Golfing Machine terms it almost boils down to the differences between accumulators #2 and #3.

to me, what you are describing is to "Hold Off" or not let your hand roll over thru impact. you can certainly do that - it's your golf game, your golf swing...

Look at the first Haney image below. That's what I'm prescribing. The angle between his right forearm and right arm (club shaft is maintained and he's three feet after the golf ball here. Image 2 shows that there's been no rolling and the left wrist is still rather flat. And image 3 shows that Hogan's left arm is still ahead of the shaft and his flying wedge is still tremendous. Hogan was a great push-fader of the ball and you can see that his clubface is well open relative to his stance.

i go back to my original post where i said something to the effect that i believe the release is a subject for good players - people who've hit 100,000's of golf balls.

I fit into that category, as do Dave, Steve, and even the folks in the videos you included:

And again, this video, which shows how the release of the clubhead is bad and how the truest way to hit a draw (go ahead, try to name one PGA Tour player who had their success as a pull-drawer of the golf ball) is to maintain the angle and hit the ball with an open clubface:

[david_wedzik]

if so, the bald guy?

First and foremost...BALD guy!? I very much prefer "shaved" head which is "in" now so consider how lucky I am

Couple points which I think will help here: 1. As to the listening to Haney, Harmon, etc. and how they describe things...I would very much caution people to consider the advice in question and how it impacts their game. Just because Haney or Harmon says it does not make it true and in fact I know some stories that would make your head spin. Suffices to say they are top teachers for a reason but that doesn't mean every tip they give is correct in general...or correct for you. 2. I really believe this whole discussion and disagreement within the thread is an issue of semantics (the semantics in golf tend to be a huge problem). The point in question is not really whether the club squares (it does within a range of course) but whether the thought of actively "releasing" the club can be harmful to many golfers. We believe it can and that is why we did the video. Here is why. The wrists are turned some small amount during the backswing so they are also rolled that small amount in the downswing - we can agree on that. However it is a VERY subtle sensation for most golfers when done correctly and they MUST only return to their inline condition (of course feel is dependent on the individual). Golfers who attempt to "release" and square the club because they have been slicing the ball (most golfers slice because of the out to in path and not the face...that is the point of all this) risk clubhead throwaway and that "release" sending the club over the top and ENSURING the out to in path. This movement virtually guarantees the pull or slice. The real point here by Erik is that the "release the club" to square it up advice is almost always the cause of the out to in path and pulls/slices. The large majority of golfers who believe they need this advice are hitting their slices with a "squarish" face angle already. Dave

[lcfd42]

The easiest way to say you have done it right for me would be to say that right after impact the club seems to get a very heavy sensation and a feel of pulling down on the shoulders. When I feel this, it is always a good shot, pending alighnment, etc, etc.. are correct.

[Leftygolfer]

There is only one effective way to use your wrist in the golf swing. That is the hing up and down. Any side to side hinging is horrid for power and accuracy. That hing (the correct one) release because of speed and isn't a thought on the down swing. I know that the worst golf of my life was when I was trying to release the club and flipping. The feeling I have now is a very solid right wrist with my hands ahead when I am hitting it the way I want to. This way I am using my entire right arm, side, and leg as a lever to compress the ball and create speed.

[golfdad]

interesting discussion,,,2 cents here

a while back i read an article on nadal in which they talked about his beginning years with tennis. apparently, one of his uncles was a good ping pong player and somehow they have decided to incorporate some ping pong "wristy" moves into his swings. studies have shown that nadal spins his forehand much much more than federer, for whatever it is worth. anyway, my point is that nadal can manage to play with extremely wristy tennis strokes, a deviation from conventional teaching, that it can be done in the hand of a genius, but, as erik said earlier, you need tremendous amt of talent to do the same in golf. i think it can be done, just that if the concept is applied across the board to every joe and jane, expect poor outcomes.

i don't dare to get into what is release and what is not, but just want to point out one thing: one can square the clubface without doing any active or intentional flipping/unhinging/releasing/whatever term you like to the wrist. when the forearms start to roll on top of each other, right before impact, the wrists naturally and physiologically unhinge. it just happens. try it if you don't believe me. fight as hard as you can to keep the wrist hinge as you roll your forearms with a club in hands,,,you just can't keep the hinge beyond that physiological limit just mentioned. by the time the leading forearm is underneath, your wrist hinge is gone.

i can understand why some people find the slogan "releasing the club" misleading because it may plant the misconception that it is purely a wrist phenom. it is not. if everyone is actively releasing wrists through the wrists, 99% will eventually develop tendonitis, especially beginners. in fact, there is a term called golfer's elbow where the flexor tendons in the forearm are inflammed at their elbow insertion sites. i suspect the pathophysiology is what we are talking about it.

[Chas]

Yes, an interesting discussion. I agree that "release the club" is a useless piece of advice, for me at least. Any attempt to actively manipulate the club through the impact zone just doesn't make sense to me because of the pace of events and impossibility of precise motor control, so only in the most passive sense of "letting go" does the phrase apply. Better that I just think of the laws of physics (conservation of angular momentum etc) taking over as I come down towards impact. By then it's too late to do anything useful by conscious effort except try to ensure a full and complete turn (not my strong point).

[shortgamewiz]

I agree with the original premise. Never liked the term myself. And it means so many different things.. and I don't like any of them.
I don't think it's ever helped me in any way to think about 'releasing', and I've certainly tried it (I tried everything).
Now I've come to believe that it's mechanically just plain wrong.

[Tom]

Hi Dave

I'm a shaver too.. and new to this community. Thanks for your thoughts. I hope we are talking semantics. Watch Hogan in the video I posted yesterday - turning his hands... there's no amount of text you can write that can change my mind that "releasing at the bottom" "rolling the hands over" "turning the hands" "rolling your right forearm over your left" - however you want to describe the 'semantic' is correct. Are you telling everyone that Ben Hogan was wrong?

I release with a "built-in" turn of the hands/arms at impact. Impact is a millisecond long event, or is it a nanosecond? Am I literally closing the club face - yes I am - thru impact. Apropos... I'm watching my DVR'd SBS Championship from yesterday. Angel Cabrera on the tee at 6th hole - 398yd PAR4, taking driver. It's a beautiful hole - you can easily see the shot requires a mild draw - a cliff is right of a fairly narrow fairway. As Angel hit his tee shot Brandle Chamblee said "It's a dangerous tee shot. Stephen Ames, about an hour ago thinking the fairway was straight, but lost it right." Anyway, I digress... Angel's ball rolls out to the front of the green (down hill roll) so he has hit an "official 390 yard drive." I'm not saying that only people who release their hands at the bottom are capable of hitting draws, hit it long, etc. The point of this... the recording is 4hrs31mins in length. As they go to commercial break (with 3hr54min40sec left in event) they show Angel in super duper slowmo - very very very close up - camera was about 6 feet from him - face on. You can very evidently and quite clearly watch - no dispute - that he's turning his hands at impact . Semantics?? There's nothing semantic about it - Kelly Tillman goes to commercial with this running saying "There's the swing - the slowed down version - of a Master's champion, Angel Cabrera" ...rolling his hands at impact.

Tom

PS
perhaps S&T; teaches to keep your clubface open at imapct. if this is the case - i can't argue that because i literally know nothing abuot S&T;

[Chas]

Interesting post. The key question though is, to what extent is active motor effort (fiber contraction in the relevant muscles) going on at the micro/nano/pico second of impact? The hands are indeed rolling, but this motion has largely been set in place (in terms of angular/linear momentum) somewhat prior to reaching the impact zone. It can look like you're using muslces to make things happen at a certain instant without actually doing so.

What we need is a muscle physiologist hooking a golfer up to get all the good electrophysiological data throughout the swing, esp. before and at impact of course. Has that been done ever?

Nice post.

p.s. I don't have the answer. Also, you'd have to hook up a representative population of golfers - hackers to pros.

[golfdad]

not sure what a "muscle physiologist" can add to this since the issue is not about whether muscles are firing---muscles are firing, during a golf swing, regardless whether the muscles controlling wrist action are keeping the wrist still or actively flexing: concentric vs eccentric muscle contraction.

in fact, one can argue that haney and other godly golf teachers in this instance have not made it perfectly clear for folks to understand their intentions at multiple levels. for instance, upon seeing the pictures of haney and hogan in erik's post, what is there to elaborate? the wrist hinge is still there just after impact!

really, a pic is worthy much more in this case, as shown.

[iacas]

Watch Hogan in the video I posted yesterday - turning his hands...

Except that he didn't. Look at the still photo I posted FROM that video. There's no turning there. He released the lag at the bottom, which is a completely different move than rolling the wrists.

Are you telling everyone that Ben Hogan was wrong?

No. Your interpretation of what Ben was doing is wrong. Ben rolled his wrists well after impact. His definition of "release" is lag.

perhaps S&T; teaches to keep your clubface open at imapct. if this is the case - i can't argue that because i literally know nothing abuot S&T;

In order to hit a proper draw your clubface has to be open at impact. Hogan's clubface was open at impact too - he was a push-fader (like many other good players). Name one player who had success as a pull-drawer of the golf ball - they don't exist. It's too inconsistent.

Tom, again you don't need to know S&T;, as this isn't S&T-specific.; Uncocking or "releasing the lag" is a very different move than "releasing the clubface" i.e. rolling the wrists. In Golfing Machine terms, rolling the wrists is accumulator #3, cocking the left wrist is accumulator #2. Distinct, different moves. Hogan was talking about #2, as was Hank Haney. Their videos clearly show they've not done much of #3 - Hank hasn't even done it three feet after the ball is gone. (FWIW #1 is straightening a bent right arm and #4 is the left arm moving across the chest, or increasing the angle between the left upper arm and the line between the two shoulders. Each accumulator has a corresponding pressure point, blah blah blah).

The hands are indeed rolling, but this motion has largely been set in place (in terms of angular/linear momentum) somewhat prior to reaching the impact zone. It can look like you're using muslces to make things happen at a certain instant without actually doing so.

The hands aren't "indeed" rolling. It's not a given. There are a number of pros who hit the ball and get well, well into their follow-through without any forearm rotation at all. If the right arm gets to parallel at or before the shaft of the club, they've not rolled much at all. They can't - they still have the angle between their right forearm and their shaft.

What we need is a muscle physiologist hooking a golfer up get all the good data throughout the whole swing. Has that been done ever?

That's not necessary. The Golfing Machine already quantified everything, and you can see what players are doing with a good video. You also need the understanding - you can rotate the clubface without rolling your wrists. Duh - we play golf on an inclined plane, and that's the whole premise behind an arc putting stroke - the clubface opens on the backswing and closes coming back down, but it's square to the line of the plane the whole time. But you must know that, so I'm not going to repeat myself there except to say that you can retain lag for a really, really long time and the clubface looks like it has a high rate of closure at impact, but it's not due to #2, just the release of #3.

Clarifying Myself I believe I've stated all of this before, but perhaps not in one place... 1) What a good or great player says he does is often not what actually occurs. 2) Terms can often be misunderstood or mis-applied, particularly by the average golfer. 3) The best drawers of the golf ball hit the ball with an open clubface. Those are all, as far as I'm concerned, facts. #2 is the only one that's even close to being debatable. Now, those things said: 1) Hogan didn't start rolling the wrists prior to impact. If you're maintaining lag (left wrist cock) it's virtually impossible to roll your wrists without the club tipping out well over the top and outside/above the plane. Often good players will confuse what they've done just after impact with what they've done at or slightly before impact. Hogan retained lag even into impact, making it virtually impossible for him to have rotated much in the manner described. 2) Average golfers hear "release" and do what was shown in the Dave and Steve video - they roll and flip the club out over the top, above the plane. They can do this because they've likely also cast the clubhead - releasing their lag prematurely. You can roll the wrists when you've lost your "lag" - that's why better players that roll their wrists do it after impact. 3) Not much more I can say about that. A clubface that's open with a path slightly more inside-out will produce a push-draw. Hogan was a push-fader, and his clubface - like Nicklaus's, etc. - was also open to his stance and path at impact. Again, a simple drill. Grip a pencil. Point the pencil straight down at address so you have no left wrist cock. Attempt to roll your wrists over each other - it's very easy to do and the only things that move are your arms (and even then mostly just your forearms), wrists, and hands. Now cock your left wrist up so the pencil or whatever is pointing straight away from you or even slightly up. You can't rotate your right wrist over your left wrist from this position without your entire right shoulder swinging out over the plane. It's a hideous move. Since a good player retains some of the lag in the second drill through impact, it's virtually impossible for them to have actively rolled the right wrist at all. Yes, a lot of great players do it after impact. After they've spent their "lag." Update: I re-read my first post, and in terms of simplicity, I think it's still the best one I've made. Do that drill. You don't rotate prior to impact. Not if you're on-plane*... It's shown in the video I posted as well. * If you get "stuck" and the clubhead gets behind your hands at that position (P6, club shaft parallel to ground on downswing), then you have to roll to try to "save" the shot, but that's a correction that almost never works, not something you should actively try to do.

[Zeph]

One problem I've had is rolling the wrists over in the backswing. That leads to a world of trouble. You have to rotate them back at the exactly right time to square up the clubface. Virtually impossible to be consistent with. Two shots can be anything from a push-slice, OTT and open clubface, to a pull-hook, OTT and closed clubface. If you roll the wrists in the backswing, the only way to square up is by rolling them back.

There is no way you can roll the wrists prior to impact and still be accurate.

Any suggestions to drills on how to practice not rolling the wrists (and forearms) in the backswing? Or some graphic/video that explains it.

[iacas]

One problem I've had is rolling the wrists over in the backswing. That leads to a world of trouble.

Yeah, I over-rotate (too much #3) early on and then I counter-rotate later. The fix for me is to feel as if I've counter-rotated from the start... which just feels that way, because in reality I've not counter-rotated at all.

There is no way you can roll the wrists prior to impact and still be accurate.

Yeah, I'd agree with that.

I wanted to say one more thing too: you cannot - CAN NOT - "roll the wrists." They're attached pretty firmly to the forearms. They can cock (not nearly as much as you'd think) and they can fold, but they can NOT rotate independent of your forearms.

Any suggestions to drills on how to practice not rolling the wrists (and forearms) in the backswing? Or some graphic/video that explains it.

Well that's probably best for another thread. You should start one.

[Tom]

Erik, Not sure where I said "roll the wrists" prior to impact. That's not releasing the club. That's not a golf stroke. In essence I've said "release at the bottom" which IS impact. I'm done with this because " it's in the dirt " as far as I'm concerned. Happy Golfing.

[iacas]

Erik, Not sure where I said "roll the wrists" prior to impact. That's not releasing the club. That's not a golf stroke. In essence I've said "release at the bottom" which

I'm not trying to belabor the point, but you said it right here - your first post, I think:

2. rolling your hands is a key to good, sound impact and "release" of the club face. during practice when i intentionally think to roll my hands thru impact i hit great baby draws from a square stance that 99% of the time are on the line. it's like the tennis impact. you can play good tennis by not rolling your hand over. but, you can play much better and much more aggressive tennis when you learn how to roll your hand over. look at the greatest teachers - they all talk about releasing the club face. this is in essence, the "rolling of the hands." they should put this advice in a chapter called "Advanced Technique." if you ask a beginning tennis player to roll his hands, he'll not know waht to do, and he'll give up tennis. but if you ask an advanced player to roll his hands (assuming he hasn't done this before) he'll discover a part of the game that will unlock his true potential.

You can't roll the wrists without rolling the hands and vice versa. This also rolls the forearms over each other, again, because there's no rotary socket built into the hand/wrist/forearm.

[Chas]

I only just looked at your video clips Erik, couldn't get them to run earlier. I see what you mean about maintaining the wrist angle through impact, i.e. any rolling takes place after the event. Very instructive.

Golfdad: My point about electrophysiology was only that precise data on fiber activity would reveal exactly what was occurring when during the stroke (which is trivially true of course), and we are discussing motor control here. It's not a practical suggestion since the data would have to be obtained without interfering with the golfer's action in any way.

I shall look at those video clips again, and other similar ones, to get a better sense of what should be happening. It seems clear enough to me now that the wrists are indeed very passive through impact, more so that I had thought. I'm sure that I'm "manipulating" the club too much through the contact zone, resulting in major loss of consistency and control. Since I tend to approach the ball somewhat too much from the inside, I have a real tendency to hook it when I "release" early. It's fear of the hook which has led to various other problems in my swing. This thread might help me a lot, if I can just figure out how to make the right changes.

Tom: I agree with you about rolling the hands in tennis to impart spin in certain shots (the topspin backhand being my personal favorite). It's something that only the better players can achieve consistently and with control - beginners should keep a fixed wrist-forearm relationship. Ilie Nastase was the best example of a "wristy" tennis layer in the early 70's, just extraordinary control of trajectory through spin via wrist action. I watched him on Center Court just dissect Manuel Orantes' game in a semifinal at Wimbledon around 1972, a truly extraordinary display of spin control. He hit a heavy backhand topspin volley lob over Orantes' head from midcourt that was all wrist, I can still see it in my mind's eye (lucky enough to be in a front row seat after queueing up outside the stadium half the preceding night). But golf is a different matter, at least for someone like me who still has major control issues. It took me many years to develop a reliable down-the-line topspin backhand passing shot for example. I'm not gonna try to develop a draw through wrist action in golf - I don't think I'll live that long of a time ........

[golfdad]

in the fingers, the joints allow flexion and extension, aka, bend and straighten.

the shoulder joint is the most mobile joint in the body, allowing motion in multiple planes. the high mobillity corresponds to low stablility.

in between finger and shoulder we have elbow joint and wrist joint.

in the elbow joint, there are 4 main range of motion: flexion, extension, supination and pronation. when combined, one can achieve some level of elbow joint based rotation. for instance, during backswing, focusing for instance on the lagging arm at the elbow, the sequence of range of motion is supination and flexion on the way up and then extension and pronation on the way down. that sequence occurs seamlessly in a rotation.

in the wrist joint, 4 motions: flexion, extension, and adduction and abduction. ( sucking one's thumb= abduction, for instance). if one feels that the wrist joint is less mobile than the elbow joint as a whole, that is a correct feeling, based on anatomy. still, wrist can rotate when the 4 motions combine. think of whisking eggs in a bowl.

i just saw chas' post above in which he thought the wrist should be "passive" during impact. actually a better way to define it is that it is far from being passive. associated muscles are actively maintaining the wrist hinge in that angle. not as much work invovled as active "flipping" probably but nonetheless, there is still work being done. another way to think of it is that we stand on the floor really relaxed, as if doing nothing, "passively" standing there. but be aware that a lot of muscles are actively firing to allow us to stand erect.

[Chas]

I wouldn't argue with that. Let's say, "passive with respect to rolling the club over", which would feel very passive in the mind of the golfer since basal (tonal) muscle activity doesn't really register. Of course you are right that there is constant low level muscle action required to maintain posture etc, no doubt about that - else we would fall in a heap in the tee box.

This is a very interesting thread to me. So you guys, how do I work to prevent any active rolling of the wrists before impact?