The Stack and Tilt Golf Swing

[iacas]

Stack and Tilt has a critical flaw right now that may keep it from ever catching on. That's the availability of teaching pros who can help correct flaws and advance the student as they need to, rather than allow them to learn wrong habits and swing flaws.

Have you seen or heard of evolvr?

http://evolvr.thegolfevolution.com/

I'm not discounting that Stack and Tilt is or isn't an effective method to swing the golf club, but the problem comes in when the student has problems. If I were to continue with it I could learn it wrong from the beginning and never learn it right because there is no pro here to help me out.

I'm not going to keep plugging evolvr, but that's the reason we created it. There are a lot of good instructors out there, but there are also a lot of bad ones. This forum has a good number of people on it, and you're welcome to post video on several other more specific forums - the Golf Evolution forum, Dana Dahlquist's, etc.

We'll have to agree to disagree on how useful the DVDs are. They're a treasure trove of information.

This may be where Stack and Tilt loses in the long run.

The number of qualified Stack and Tilt instructors is growing. When David Leadbetter first started it was him... and now there are a bunch of David Leadbetter instructors. Or Jim Hardy. Or Mike Bender. Etc.

Even before Stack and Tilt I would always straighten my right leg during the backswing. We focused on keeping the bend in the right leg and shifting the weight back naturally, just by allowing it to shift with the hip/shoulder turn.

Oy, sorry to hear that's what you're working on... Good luck.... I'll leave you with this:

(Ignore the spelling. Mike and Andy are terrible spellers. )

[trajectory]

Been golfing since I was 5 years old. 37 now. Played some great golf as a youngster winning some local tournaments and shooting a 68 on a decent course at age 12. Grew some muscles developed a horrible duck hook and never could play that well again. Had my moments but they would only last for a day or two.

I studied Jimmy Ballard's book when I was in high school. Loading on the right and firing it never worked for me. In fact, I think it made my hanging on the right side problems worse. I tried to find my swing and make a showing in professional golf, however, I never got past being a PGA Professional at a local small golf club. Gave up on the entire idea 10 years ago when a better business opportunity came my way.

Anyway, for some reason last year I got an idea about the golf swing and picked up the old 945's.....keeping the head absolutely stock still obviously until post impact to finish. The idea in my mind was that we experience resistance to the ground, we need to experience resistance at the top of the swing too... the head, that way the middle can free-wheel all it wants. I saw immediate improvement, keeping the head stock still during the backswing and first half of downswing.

Reading about stack and tilt, kind of reminds me of how the swing should be. I find that I automatically tilt and have steeper shoulders going back with the head and base of the neck anchored. The arms extend naturally and the wrists break exactly how they should. The one thing that would get me was fat shots with short irons and wedges. So, I tried some S&T; and started left and moved hard on the left to create a transition. WOW! What this move feels like to me is.....at the top my left foot, knee, and hip feel like they are going to absolutley explode with power. All I do is rip it with my hips and hit hard as I approach the ball. I feel the club loading up and feel a bit of a squat into the left leg. Once the top of the swing is reached there's no stopping it...it just happens. The trajectory of all my irons is almost the same and the ball hisses out there like a rocket, rises a bit and falls softley.

My goal this year is to actually play a few rounds of golf, see what happens and tweak as necessary. Get the shortgame and putting back in shape, and give a few amatuer tournaments a go. Can't believe I've wasted 10 years of not golfing and then this development. Thank you S&T; for giving me more of an understanding of a true golf swing.

[MMouse]

This is my swing. First is my "conventional" swing in regular time and then slow motion.
After that is my attempt at a Stack and Tilt.

Other than the flipping of the hands, where would you guys start to fix the swing. The swing feels sooooo good when I make good contact and make a good shot. Right now though it's far too inconsistent and I'm not sure where to start.

[iacas]

My goal this year is to actually play a few rounds of golf, see what happens and tweak as necessary. Get the shortgame and putting back in shape, and give a few amatuer tournaments a go. Can't believe I've wasted 10 years of not golfing and then this development. Thank you S&T; for giving me more of an understanding of a true golf swing.

Nice. I like reading stuff like that.

I came to S&T; in very much the same way. I realized on my own that keeping my head steady and still was a good thing. I kept my weight pretty well forward. What I didn't do was have a good hand path or any hip rotation, really - too much of the "popular" instruction got me there. Since I didn't have good hips or hands I lacked the push forward. I've gained 20 yards with irons, more with the driver, and obviously saw my handicap drop like a stone from the 2.0 or 1.8 or 2.4 that it was then. S&T; isn't as radical as many think it is - in fact, it's almost the opposite. I could argue that "slide off the ball, straight hand path back, resist with the hips, etc." is more radical. Anyway, good on you, and welcome to The Sand Trap.

[trajectory]

mmouse, Watch your head....it moves forward and down in the backswing. Can't do that. Keep it rock solid steady throughout the swing and you'll find some other flaws are corrected. Try to feel like Jack Nicklaus himself is there holding your head still......let your body movements feel oily and free, anchored by your head and feet.

I think S&T;'ers see instant great results loading aggressively left and they start overcooking the idea trying to keep the feeling. I monitor my swing by my head movement and when my back foot comes up. When I overcook it my back foot wants to come up a bit in the backswing....AND I don't get that quick automatic kick into the ball with it coming into impact. I'll miss right. When I'm centered and loading left properly everything happens without thought.

[Pyzik]

Well, I am new to golf (a month or so in). I have played 4 games and been to the driving range about 15 times and been with an instructor twice. The instructor helped a ton. So has this thread!

Using this on top of what the instructor helped me with. I have added a lot of power to my swing with the same amount of effort. I am still getting the same pattern of drift with the ball but getting more consistently strait.

Thanks for the great thread. I plan on continuing to monitor it.

[Jell0b0y]

I played 2 9 hole rounds since reading and practicing S&T; and i have to say I am sold on it. My first round I was setting on the tee box with 3 pars and 3 bogeys (pretty good for me) then i had a relapse and drove a couple out of bounds when my old swing creep-ed back up on me and i shot a 10 with the penalty strokes and on the 8th tee hit a beautiful drive but it rolled in the rough and couldn't find it and with stroke and distance shot an 8. all said and done I shot a 49 and I have shot better but I chalked it up to still learning the new swing.

I went today and shot a 45 and the main cause of that was one 3 putt and a couple duff chips that cost me 3 D. bogeys and that was the worse score on my card. I hit 4 out of 7 fairways and 3 GIR and that is very rare for me to hit more that 1 than a round. no lost ball penalty shots and man i love not hitting Fat shots!

[Tonywoods]

Any adjustments recommended for S&T; pattern and hitting out of a thick lie in the rough?
I have been playing the ball back, like I am used to, but as our rough has thickened up this year I have been struggling, irons really seem to close up fast, resulting in pulls. Trying to hold the face from closing really seems to throw me off.

[Dinovirus]

Took the advice and picked up a camera, so here is my swing in action. I'm not sure if I'm doing everything right but in this particular sequence just about all of the shots are fairly well struck. I do have a problem with the odd push and when I hit some balls with my hybrid I also had on that went right off the toe, but generally I'm pleased with the results. However, like I said before, every once in a while I get trapped in total shank city, and I literally have NO IDEA why that happens. I wonder if possibly I'm moving the club too far inside, but in the video it doesn't look too bad.

Anyways, I'd really appreciate any input from the S&T; gurus on this board. This is a really great resource.

[talismand]

Just picked up the book and am giving it an honest effort. The main problem I'm having is maintaining my balance, which surprises me. Every time I get a good swing on the ball I seem to be falling forward and needing to take a step to keep from falling. By forward, I don't mean in the direction my body was facing at address (perpendicular to the target line) but in the direction it faces at the finish (parallel to the target line).

Is it me just shifting TOO much weight forward? The shots themselves tend to be straight pushes about 15~20 degrees to the right, with the occasional draw thrown in. I know the stock shot is a draw and I'm not seeing it often enough so I know I'm doing something wrong already.

Picking up a Kodak ZxD this week to shoot swing videos. Any thoughts in the meantime?

[iacas]

Is it me just shifting TOO much weight forward?

Yeah - your upper center is quite likely also going forward. It should stay the same while your hips push forward.

[MMouse]

I picked up the book last week and it's helped alot. The crush the can drill has helped me the most. I went out and played 9 today and matched my best score, hit my furthest drive ( 257 ) andwas able to shape the shot successfully twice.

I am more than convinced that this swing has benefits to it and will continue to work at it. Right now my flying wedge and follow thru need some work.

[talismand]

Yeah - your upper center is quite likely also going forward. It should stay the same while your hips push forward.

This was 100% on point. I used the webcam on my laptop as a stand-in to see body movement, and indeed my upper center was moving with my lower center, even though I thought I was keeping it still. As soon as I started keeping my head/chest steady, I was hitting clean shots and finishing is great balance. And consider my interest piqued, I hit some of the best shots I've ever hit, and I've just read up to the "Stack and Tilt in 30 minutes" section. I think I'll continue down this path for the rest of the summer and see where it gets me.

[TomL]

Actually a pretty good few weeks.
Tommy Armour III was Top5 at a recent Champions Tour event.
Alex Cejka was Top 10 US Open and just over the weekend tied 3rd (2 shots back) at the BMW in Europe.
Charlie Wi contended through most of the weekend at The Travellers and ended up 9 under - Top 20 - but he couldn't gain ground on Justin Rose. Rose - not a Stack and Tilter per se - works with Sean Foley who incorporates a lot of S&T; basics into his guys swings. eg - Sean O'Hairas well.

TomL

[J_Bone]

Well, I just had my first practice session since reading the book. I started out making good contact but the direction was shaky with big fades. I took a break and mentally went over what I was doing and compared it to what I read. I was still coming over the top too much and not tilting on the downswing. Once that was corrected the down swing movement went smooth and the ball went exactly where I wanted. The ball had a 5 yard draw and was going 180 yards with an 7 iron.
I only hit Irons today and will get to the Woods on Thursday. Very impressed so far with ball striking and control when done properly.

[akgolfnut]

I am halfway through the book, and I also have been reading Andrew Rice's book, which incorporates some SnT principles. I went to the range tonight, and not having read the entire book, I just concentrated on keeping my weight forward. I didn't have much success after one bucket, it was my typical inconsistent swing. Even though it was super hot, I got another bucket, and decided to concentrate more on the left shoulder down and in, and the hands inward. Again, not real consistent, so I thought I would exagerrate the down and in shoulder turn and hands inward feeling. It felt really weird, like I was dipping too much and swinging so flat -- probably I guess because I am so used to turning my shoulders more behind the ball, and taking my arms up -- but I was making crisp contact. Ball flight was not the stock draw, more of a fade, but i was encouraged by the contact. No thins, fatsies, or shanks in the entire bucket -- for me that's unreal. My swing felt more circular, which I guess that is what it is supposed to feel like. Distance was not the greatest, though I attribute that to still learning the swing (and range balls!). Can't wait to get back out there and incorporate the other principles.

btw, Andrew Rice's tips on the short game are golden!

[obijuan]

I'm going to buy the DVDs in the next week or so...after I finish reading through the book a second (and maybe third) time. Quick question...I can grab the first 4 DVDs on ebay for just under $60 shipped, or I can buy all 6 from the website for $99.95 or whatever. Are the last two DVDs ("Shaping the Shot" and "Swing Differentiators") worth the extra $40?

[stacks04]

I am halfway through the book, and I also have been reading Andrew Rice's book, which incorporates some SnT principles. I went to the range tonight, and not having read the entire book, I just concentrated on keeping my weight forward. I didn't have much success after one bucket, it was my typical inconsistent swing. Even though it was super hot, I got another bucket, and decided to concentrate more on the left shoulder down and in, and the hands inward. Again, not real consistent, so I thought I would exagerrate the down and in shoulder turn and hands inward feeling. It felt really weird, like I was dipping too much and swinging so flat -- probably I guess because I am so used to turning my shoulders more behind the ball, and taking my arms up -- but I was making crisp contact. Ball flight was not the stock draw, more of a fade, but i was encouraged by the contact. No thins, fatsies, or shanks in the entire bucket -- for me that's unreal. My swing felt more circular, which I guess that is what it is supposed to feel like. Distance was not the greatest, though I attribute that to still learning the swing (and range balls!). Can't wait to get back out there and incorporate the other principles.

My first go at it at the range ans then again playing a round my distance was way off. I like you put it on the new swing. After 3 rounds and a few more range sessions I am doing very good now. My local range is 250, but down hill, google earth places the fence at 242, I now consistently hit it. On some of my better drives I used google earth to figure the distance and it was consistant 260 or so now with one bomb of 280. I had a fall back this weekend though, I was over thinking the shot and was slicing the ball again. Every drive was met with huge amounts of thought process which i had done away with in the last week or so. You could tell it was there.