The Stack and Tilt Golf Swing

[kfowler]

Thanks Eric. Now that I look back, I think that I was setup 70/30.

My standard setup process was to put feet together and then move left foot out and then right foot out to widen my stance. One thing I noticed from this is that since I put my left foot out first, I had a habit of putting too much weight on my left side because you have to move your weight over there in order to move your right out.

I made one subtle change during my lesson that really helped. I started putting my right foot out first, then my left. I think this really helped me get closer to the 55/45 you mentioned. This idea occurred to me because I really wasn't having the same issue with my driver. Well with the driver, the ball is already position off my left heel when my feet are together. So to get into a balanced stance, all I have to do is drop my right foot back. My left foot never moves. This kept me from overdoing it on the left side. Funny how small things like that can work. It's been a harder habit to break though. I really have to think about it when I'm starting my setup.

[Leftygolfer]

I have been doing indoor practice turning against walls or doors, anything that tells me my head isn't moving. I think the weather is going to break this weekend for some heated range practice and I am hopeful for some change in my consistancy. Any recommendations other than what the book says. I was planning on just bringing a 6 iron, PW, and an alignment stick and focusing on solid contact and the keys to S&T.;

[david_wedzik]

In at least 3 or 4 separate articles, by 3 or 4 separate writers, I have read that, if you have a problem with an ongoing slice (which is my problem) that the S&T; pattern will not help and will only make your swing a lot worse.

I know you have gotten a couple answers to this post already but I created a diagram to show the geometry of what is meant by "if golfers had learned to play with their weight more forward we would have generations of drawers, rather than generations of slicers" . Because we play golf setup to the side of the ball on an inclined plane...the path that the club (and hands) moves on is a circle when transcribed onto the ground. The diagram below shows this circle as would be seen from an overhead view. With all else equal...weight more forward, handle more forward=strikes more on the backside of that circle...weight more back, handle more back=strikes more on the front side. Backside=in to out=draws.....Front side=out to in=fades/slices. Hope this makes sense!

Dave

[PS90]

David,

Thanks very much for the lesson - makes complete sense, and it agrees with what Mike and Andy are teaching in S&T.; And it also agrees with iacas' and i-Guy's opinions that Brady Riggs and his posse are morons.

I guess I don't get it - compared to you guys, I am a complete noob and don't know much about golf. But the concept made sense to me, so how do these so-called "experts" have it so wrong?

[Leftygolfer]

Funny thing reading things on the internet in other forums and articles. The articles say how s&t; isn't good for most players then you read the comments and most are how they are playing so much better now with S&T.;

[RIduffer]

That portion of the paragraph says:

To be fair, when the guy refers to people who "have a hard time coming from the inside", I'm pretty sure he means people who are

unable to hit from the inside (i.e. they swing outside-in or OTT, causing a slice or pull). Nonetheless, I disagree with his claim that S&T; would neccessarily make someone pull or slice the ball worse than they already do. I think for alot of people it will help them hit the inside of the ball and hit a draw finally.

[PS90]

Nonetheless, I disagree with his claim that S&T; would neccessarily make someone pull or slice the ball worse than they already do. I think for alot of people it will help them hit the inside of the ball and hit a draw finally.

Man, I'm hoping you're right.

Can't wait for spring...

[iacas]

To be fair, when the guy refers to people who "have a hard time coming from the inside", I'm pretty sure he means people who are

Ah, I see what you mean. I took it as "you come down from the inside and it causes problems" while he meant to say "you come over it and not from the inside like you should."

That makes sense. Whew. So I take back the SUPER harsh statements and reduce them to just harsh.

[Leftygolfer]

I went to the range first time on Saturday after reading the book and tried to work on what was in the book. First impression, a little ackward feeling the left knee straighten but realy allowed me to turn and stay centered. When I made a good move I really liked the results. I hit alot of quality shots and very impressed with how high I could hit it and how not hooking much at all, just a 5 yard draw. One thing I noticed with the swing is for me I pushed alot of shots. I was using a club for alignment so I know I was pushing it relative to my aim. I also was hitting my driver very high which I am not sure if I will have to go down to a 9.5 in loft. Is this typical? I used to play a pretty hard almost pull draw and playing the push draw it is a good looking shot, just a bit left.

My question regarding my pushes is should I just learn to aim for it or is there something I can do. I went through the fault tree and I already have a pretty strong grip, ball position is good. I like not hooking the ball and that is huge. My pushes were most noticable with my 5 wood and 3 iron. But they were very high quality shots, just 20 yards left. Any thoughts or comments would be appreciated.

Thanks!!

[PS90]

Hey lefty,

Again, I am far from an expert in anything related to S&T;, but in the DVD's, Mike and Andy discuss the difference between a straight draw and a push on at least three separate occasions - and, from what I can tell, the only real difference is the face angle of the club should be slightly more closed for a straight draw.

Myself, I will be very happy if S&T; causes me to push or even hook it a little bit - up till now, 90% of my shots are pulls or huge slices. Don't get to try till the snow melts, though...

[iacas]

I also was hitting my driver very high which I am not sure if I will have to go down to a 9.5 in loft. Is this typical? I used to play a pretty hard almost pull draw and playing the push draw it is a good looking shot, just a bit left.

Pulls de-loft the club. Pushes add loft (how they curve from there is swing path, so, irrelevant to the discussion of driver loft for now). So you may have more loft than you needed because you were de-lofting in hitting your pulls. I think you realize that and were basically admitting that you knew that in what you posted.

So yeah, you may need to drop in loft. If you start hitting pushes and push-draws, the ball flight should naturally be a bit higher, and you won't need a 10.5 degree driver to get to your desired launch angle, but may instead need an 8.5 to 9.5 degree driver.

My question regarding my pushes is should I just learn to aim for it or is there something I can do.

You have to push the ball to give it room to draw.

The Stack and Tilt "stock" shot is one where you aim a few degrees (x) open to the target with your clubface and catch the ball when you're swinging out 2x degrees. Your feet remain relatively square. A push with no draw can be a result of a few things, but basically, you didn't get the 2x part of the equation, you just matched the face angle at impact. The fault tree is a good starting point but the basics are you didn't catch it when you were swinging out enough. Could be a few things - handle wasn't properly far forward, ball position too far forward, left shoulder didn't stay forward, hips didn't push through quite enough...

Again, I am far from an expert in anything related to S&T;, but in the DVD's, Mike and Andy discuss the difference between a straight draw and a push on at least three separate occasions - and, from what I can tell, the only real difference is the face angle of the club should be

S&T; never really wants the clubface to be closed relative to the target line. I'm not sure if that's what you're saying, but it seems that way...

[Leftygolfer]

Thanks Erik. I will look through the book some this week and if the weather isn't horrid, I will go to the range next weekend. I might have been playing the ball too far forward, not sure.

I have one more question. I have a classic finish where the club is behind my head unless I am hitting half shots. I know they prescribe the finish as being more in front and shorter. Is this something that is going to effect me too much or should I focus on other things.

I also found the tee drill to be really awkward, particularly on the through swing. (that was just a random thought and somewhat related to my finish)

[iacas]

I have one more question. I have a classic finish where the club is behind my head unless I am hitting half shots. I know they prescribe the finish as being more in front and shorter. Is this something that is going to effect me too much or should I focus on other things.

I think they prescribe that follow-through for the same reason they teach "recoil after a punch" in karate - "hit fast, stop fast."

Frankly (and read the paragraph after this), I used to never like that part of the swing. I thought it was irrelevant because the ball was gone for so long I didn't think that what you did after the club went past parallel really revealed much about what you did leading up to impact. But... the long follow-through is naturally cut off the more you learn to maintain your flying wedge in your trailing (for me, right) wrist. So... I notice that when I maintain that angle well my follow-through is naturally cut short to the point they like to see. So in the end, I do like their follow-through position. Just not for the karate reason (which, to be fair, isn't really one of their stated reasons but is something Dave's told me).

[Leftygolfer]

I hit some balls last night. It was late and I just hit maybe 40 PW shots pretty much in the dark. I was going to the range but it was closed so I just went over to the par 3 course and practiced with my PW and a club to verify alignment. My aim was just right at right edge of the green. Anyway, I didn't miss a shot right. I have always had issues hitting big pull hooks with that club and not one. I pushed a bunch, hit a couple with inside of 5 feet, but never missed one right. HUGE CHANGE. Hit alot of pure shots. A couple I just hit way fat but when you are making change.

My question is the push. I know you said it was not because I was not moving my hips latterally but when I was looking at the book, it seemed like that it was the oppisite. What it felt like to me when I'd hit the push is my hips would get moving forward and my arms were getting left behind and I was not squaring up the face. I felt like my transition was rushed when I hit the big pushes.

Overall very positive experience. A push you can play with. Hooks really don't work.

[EHSGolf1]

What kind of ball flight trajectory wise does the Stack and Tilt swing induce?

[iacas]

What kind of ball flight trajectory wise does the Stack and Tilt swing induce?

Mid-height. Standard... A lot of people will hit the ball higher because they hit the ball lower currently. I hit the ball a little lower because I used to hit the ball too high.

[boogielicious]

Erik and Dave,

Is the a way to control the height of your shots the same with S&T;, i.e. ball farther back, short follow through for low shots?

Scott

[iacas]

Is the a way to control the height of your shots the same with S&T;?

In a word, yes.