How to hit a fade and a draw

[iacas]

Someone asked for it, so here it is.

Curvature
fade) To hit a fade, the clubface must be open relative to the swing path.
draw) To hit a draw, the clubface must be closed relative to the swing path.

Starting Line
fade) To leave room for a fade, you must aim the clubface to the left.
draw) To leave room for a draw, you must aim the clubface to the right.

Swing Path
fade) you must swing further to the left.
draw) you must swing further to the right.

Most people accomplish the "swing path" portion by aligning their feet.

Examples (approximations)
fade) feet (and thus swing path) 10° left of final target, clubface 5° left of target.
draw) feet (and thus swing path) 10° right of final target, clubface 5° right of target.

Everything here assumes you're a righty.

[jamo]

You should blog this.

[bman1313]

Most people accomplish the "swing path" portion by aligning their feet.

I tend to think the swing path is determined by the alignment of the shoulders.Thoughts?

[iammpspeer]

What kind of stupid person doesn't know this !@#$ ???

[uttexas]

What kind of stupid person doesn't know this !@#$ ???

Nick Faldo--he thinks you should point the clubface at the target (which is wrong)--see link

http://thesandtrap.com/forum/threads...-AND-Oblivious

[iacas]

I tend to think the swing path is determined by the alignment of the shoulders.Thoughts?

Yes, well most people try to align their shoulders to their feet.

That most may fail is irrelevant.

[Blades4me]

Someone asked for it, so here it is.

There are other ways also. One is to place the ball back a little more in the stance which will yeild a knock down draw (a great shot to know how to do). Move the ball up a little in the stance will yeild a fade, but not as predictable as the knock down draw.

Since I play blades I just open up or close down the face of the club a LITTLE to promote either a draw (face closed down a little) or fade (face open a little). Another way is with grip. A very strong grip, like 3 or 4 knuckles showing will produce a draw and more than likely a pull also. A very weak grip will produce a fade. For me these 2 are the most unpredictable of all. Now if they want to slice or hook, thats different and I can't help with that.

[Zeph]

There are other ways also.

These are not other ways, they are just other ways to change the clubface and swingpath angle at impact.

One is to place the ball back a little more in the stance which will yeild a knock down draw (a great shot to know how to do). Move the ball up a little in the stance will yeild a fade, but not as predictable as the knock down draw.

Ball back means you'll hit the ball while the club is still moving in-to-out. The clubface is usually not fully square. So you will get a position where the swingpath is in-to-out and the clubface open. Just what Erik wrote

Ball forwards mean you'll hit the ball when the club has moved past square, going out-to-in. The clubface may have closed a little. If you are lucky, it will produce a fade, but not too good ball striking.

Since I play blades I just open up or close down the face of the club a LITTLE to promote either a draw (face closed down a little) or fade (face open a little).

Don't see what blades has to do with this, but what do you close the face relative to? The target or your swingpath? Either way, you must change the swingpath too. A square swingpath and open or closed clubface will produce a pull-draw or push-fade.

Another way is with grip. A very strong grip, like 3 or 4 knuckles showing will produce a draw and more than likely a pull also. A very weak grip will produce a fade. For me these 2 are the most unpredictable of all.

A strong or weak grip is really just another way or opening or closing the clubface. The hands always want to be neutral, so if you take a stronger grip, the hands will turn back towards neutral and close the clubface. With a weaker grip, same thing will happen, but the clubface will open instead. You still have to swing in-to-out and out-to-in in order to get the desired shape of the shot.

Now if they want to slice or hook, thats different and I can't help with that.

You obviously can, seeing as you just described how to do it.

Doing as you described means you'll be aligning the body square to the target all the time and manipulate the swing by trying to swing in-to-out and out-to-in. Would be easier to just aim the body differently and swing the same every time.

[iacas]

That's a good diagram, Zeph. I like it. You should clean it up (make the numbers go in some sort of order) and perhaps draw the clubface as a perpendicular line (maybe - just an idea) and you'd really have something.

If you want it hosted here, once you get it really cleaned up, I can host it here if you'd prefer that over tinypic or some such service. Here you know it won't go away.

P.S. Put "Zeph" or something on the image somewhere. And check the main page for a ball flight laws article today.

[kleraudio]

Great post here Erik and Zeph...

10 degrees seems like a small amount of aiming.... especially when covering say 170 yards...

I was watching Fred couples and it seemed as if he aimed "at least" 45 degrees left of his intended target (shoulders, and feet)

I dunno, I am really interested in trying this out, seems foolproof!!

so you swing along your feet line back and through, or just on the downswing??

Once again, GREAT thread!!

Jim

[iacas]

10 degrees seems like a small amount of aiming.... especially when covering say 170 yards...

Ten degrees is quite a lot at 170 yards: 30 yards left or right (29.97558672043905, give or take... :D).

I was watching Fred couples and it seemed as if he aimed "at least" 45 degrees left of his intended target (shoulders, and feet)

The only part that matters is impact.

Look, don't read too much into "swing along your stance line." That's just meant as a general phrase. If you naturally swing a little bit inside-to-out you'll need to exaggerate your stance line for a fade and use a bit less to hit a draw... it's just about establishing a sort of baseline. Freddie is a push fader of the ball, primarily, IIRC. Same with Lee Trevino. Both of them still swing inside-to-out relative to their stance line but compensate by aiming their feet so far left. Like this (just making up numbers): Stance: 20° left, Club Path: 10° left, Face: 5° left. Those are all relative to the target. Voila: push-fade with a swing path closed relative to the feet and outside-in relative to the clubface.

[Jay-Bird]

You should blog this.

No, he should take video of himself performing each shot and edit in a voice over of himself impersonating Johnny Miller.

[iacas]

No, he should take video of himself performing each shot and edit in a voice over of himself impersonating Johnny Miller.

Bah, c'mon. I'd only have to hit one shot - the "trap draw." And I'd get tired of saying the word "supinate" over and over and over and over.

[Jay-Bird]

Bah, c'mon. I'd only have to hit one shot - the "trap draw." And I'd get tired of saying the word "supinate" over and over and over and over.

Most of you at home can't even hit a "trap draw" but I'm going define it, diagram it and talk about it at length.

I played the best final round in US Open history at Oakmont. Most of you at home would shoot 110 at Oakmont. Trap Draw. Supinate.

[kleraudio]

Very good stuff here guys. I got a little pissed at the range today so for my last 20 balls I tried shaping driver shots. I picked a target and tried fading and drawing the ball using the principles said here. Man was it fun and it really worked!

I was able to bend the ball and it sure felt great after a bad session. It feels very weird having such a closed clubface when addressing the ball for a draw. And also its kinda hard to open the face of my driver for a fade.... But if you just trust it and swing, it worked out pretty well....

Now if I can only grow the balls to try this when it counts....

Looking forward to practicing this more.

Jim

[Blades4me]

These are not other ways, they are just other ways to change the clubface and swingpath angle at impact.

LOL, quite the long winded post. Okay fine Mr literal. You are correct there are other ways to manipulate the club head in the swing path.

Blade vs cb--yes they both can work the ball, but it is easier with a blade, especially if its mid weighted. However you actually have to have a golf swing to make the mid weighted blade do that. If you don't at least have a decent swing a mid weighted blade will be hard to control. Both my MacGregor 1024 V-foils and my 78 Wilson Staff Tour blades are mid weighted. Subsequently I am able to either open up the face or close it down a little to produce the shot I want. And yes one must aim a little right or left depending on the shot--sorry, I thought that was understood. Again, silly me, everyone I know who can work the ball, (which aren't many) aim relative to the target. Again, all I was saying was there are different ways to acheive a fade or draw and you have play around with them and see which ones works best for you. Heck most golfers I see can't even hit the ball flush let alone do a draw or fade on command. Generally when one starts messing around with this, they get slices and hooks, I did. But after awhile you figure it out.

[Zeph]

LOL, quite the long winded post. Okay fine Mr literal. You are correct there are other ways to manipulate the club head in the swing path.

For the sake of people being able to understand and comprehend this subject, we must be as literal as possible. Especially since this contradicts decades of golf teachings.

And yes one must aim a little right or left depending on the shot--sorry, I thought that was understood. Again, silly me, everyone I know who can work the ball, (which aren't many) aim relative to the target.

Since I play blades I just open up or close down the face of the club a LITTLE to promote either a draw (face closed down a little) or fade (face open a little)..

Either I'm understanding you wrong here, or you are saying that you open the club, relative to the target, to hit a fade, and close it to hit a draw.

That's just about the complete opposite of how to shape the ball. Relative to the target, you open the club to hit a draw and close it to hit a fade.

[colin007]

For the sake of people being able to understand and comprehend this subject, we must be as literal as possible. Especially since this contradicts decades of golf teachings.

maybe hes not trying to hit the target? just sayin'...