Rerouting Swing Plane

[moreira85]

Is there a consious shift onto a flatter plane in the downswing or does this happen naturally with the weight shift?

[Zeph]

I don't think there should be any conscious change, no. The flatter plane happens when the right wrist folds at the top and the arms drop into the slot. The important part is to have a good takeaway and backswing so you get into the ideal position for the downswing, and from there not swing with the arms.

[steve8820]

If you haven't done so already, I recommend picking up "The Impact Zone" by Bobby Clampett. This is the first golf instruction book that I have ever. It made an immediate and dramatic difference in my ballstriking.

To your question, I believe it is a naturally occuring thing in the swing when other things are done properly. From the book above, he wants you to maintain your left wrist cock all the way to impact. As he notes, this is impossible to do so due to gravity and the club naturally uncocks. The key for me is performing the left wrist cock with the lower three fingers of my left hand. Keep your wrists loose. By focusing on this left wrist cock and swinging the club with your body, the club will naturally stay on plane.

[jamo]

Could there be an inclination to a flatter plane on the downswing due to a changing spine angle (or whatever its called) and the left knee flexing?

[uttexas]

Dropping into the slot may not be a natural move for many. Watching tour players at regular speed, one might be fooled by underestimating how much they drop the club down with the initial moves in the forward swing. With some truly "one plane" tour pros, they are already in the slot at the top of the backswing, so no need to drop into it.

[Fatphil]

  moreira85 said:

Is there a consious shift onto a flatter plane in the downswing or does this happen naturally with the weight shift?

I agree with utexas...it ain't a "natural" move at all...Tiger, Boo Weekly, Glover or other guys that have that pronounced "drop" are all superstar athletes who know & feel where their hands, shafts and clubheads are at every mm of their swings...But IMO I think you're correct that it is the weight shift that they use to key the move...in particular they say a slight bump of the lead hip towards the target.

As for me a weekend player I gave up trying to imitate that move as it creates more problems than it solves...I think "go back on plane; down the same route" and I try to recreate my hand and shaft position at address with the same position at impact. I'm not long but wtf I only play 6400 yd courses.

[Zeph]

I stumbled upon this topic again today and decided to bring the thread back up.

A lot of people say the club comes into the slot because of the weight shift. I don't see how shifting the weight to the left can automatically drop the hands lower.

If it's not a conscious move, should the arms become weightless, so the muscles just relax and let gravity pull the arms down?

Or should you try orienting the arms more down in the area between the ball and your body? Not by swinging the arms, but they will be pulled when swinging. This is something I tried once, which yield pretty good results. I remember my pitch shots becoming so much easier.

On my own swing I can achieve a good takeaway, get the hands in the proper place at the top of the backswing. But from there, the entire body starts to unwind, hips first, pulling the hands on that new plane out in front and over the top.

[Andrew Rice]

The plane drops due to the mid-section driving over onto the front foot. You don't even need a club to test this. Stand up, take your arms to the top, drive your hips to the target and look where your arms track down.....

[uttexas]

For me, it is a conscious move. Even when I try to swing on "one plane", my first moves on the forward swing are a push forward with my hips, left leg starts straightening, and I consciously try to adduct my right tricep into my torso/hip. Most people's natural tendancy at the top is to swing at the ball resulting in over the top.

[Zeph]

Just came to think about rotation vs sliding. The shoulder and arms drop when the right hip moves forward. The rotation of the arms start when the hips rotate. A problem could be the hips rotating too fast from the top, before they have moved enough forward and dropped the arms. This would cause the arms to rotate from the top, instead of dropping first and then start rotating.

[Rexx]

Zeph,

It's hard to say without seeing a swing video. But, I agree with you concerning whether the hands just "naturally" drop or not from the hip bump. I mean, I can keep my hands just where they are and shift my weight, so there must be some conscious move to lower them (even if that move is relaxation). For some people, the move happens easier, but for others, they need to unlearn some bad habits to make it work.

Watch some slow motion videos of a pro's swing from the front view. Trace out the path of the hands in both the backswing and downswing. You will see that the swing path of the hands differ from the backswing. The wide arc made by the hands on the backswing is not duplicated on the downswing. They come down on a flattened vertical arc at least a few inches closer to the body. I think part of the reason for that is if they traced the original arc back down, the club head would move outside the hands, causing the wrists to release too early (because of the weight of the clubhead and physics). This golfer tends to be someone that is a sweeper of the golf ball. He can hit off the fairway okay (assuming he doesn't hit too fat), but will struggle in the rough or fairway bunker, because of getting too much grass or sand before contact.

For me, it never felt like the hip bump itself was sufficient to cause this more vertical arc on the downswing. I would have the problem where I would bump the hip and drop the shoulder (maybe too much) without the club starting down -- I would just hold it there. This would cause some timing issues, so I have to help it along a bit...

Now, your problem with turning the hips and shoulders to start the downswing is a whole other issue. You need to momentarily keep that from happening until you've completed the bump and drop (like you said in the last post). Then, the turning of the hips, followed by/causing the turning of the shoulders, which accelerates the arms, which releases the wrists, which delivers the power to the ball. Really, it all happens pretty fast. A little bit of hip/shoulder turn during the bump and drop probably isn't going to hurt anything. For me, the whole purpose of the initial part of the downswing is to get everything in position for the unwinding that I've built up. For you, it's probably going to feel like you're going to leave the clubface WAY open (like the back of your hand is pointing 90 degrees to the target and the butt end of the club is facing the target). But don't worry, if done right, everything will square up just before impact without any intentional wrist/forearm manipulation to square the clubface. I have never felt an intentional rolling of the wrists/forearms during the follow through (when done properly) -- the momentum of the clubhead takes care of that.

This, obviously, is just my opinion and what has worked for me. There's many swings out there and the fun part is the experimentation. Oh, and the advice is probably only relevant to two-plane swingers, since the one-planers never really get their hands out of the slot. Good luck.

[grantc79]

You can stay on a single plane and not drop and do just fine.

You can also have a slight drop to a flatter plane coming back down to the ball and do just fine.

You cannot go from a flatter to more vertical plane on the way back to the ball and hit the ball well.


Either A or B is fine, just don't do C.

[RIduffer]

  grantc79 said:

You can stay on a single plane and not drop and do just fine.

Tell that to Bruce Lietzke, one of the greatest ballstrikers according to Jim McLean. #1 in Driving 9 times on PGA Tour!

http://www.••••••••••••••••.com/tgn/...e-Lietzke.html

[Zeph]

  grantc79 said:

You can stay on a single plane and not drop and do just fine..

How would you do that? You'd have to go really low with the hands, or swing like Moe Norman.

A two plane swing change to a higher plane on the backswing and swings down on that higher plane. A one plane swing change to a higher plane on the backswing and drops the arms to get back on the original plane at some place before impact.

[grantc79]

  RIduffer said:

Tell that to Bruce Lietzke, one of the greatest ballstrikers according to Jim McLean. #1 in Driving 9 times on PGA Tour!

Relative to plane you don't want that.

You can be under plane and adjust slightly up TO AN ON PLANE SWING (which is what Lietzke did) and be OK though I think there are more efficient approaches. That said you really cannot be ON PLANE and adjust to an OVER TOP OF THE PLANE position and be OK. You can however be ON PLANE and adjust to a slightly UNDER THE PLANE position and do just fine. If you look at Lietzke he was way inside going backwards and he adjusted up and made that loop. But his right hand still lets the club fold back FLATTER coming down. Now the shaft isn't covering the right forearm coming down like most of the modern players have. That said, though he does adjust up coming down he does have a very noticeable move where the club starts to flatten coming down. He still gets a flat left wrist at impact. He still has the shaft and his right forearm on a perfect straight line on plane at impact.

[grantc79]

  Zeph said:

How would you do that? You'd have to go really low with the hands, or swing like Moe Norman.

Easily.

If you start your swing with the right forearm on plane and you hit the ball with your right forearm on plane then why ever get off that plane? Now I'm not saying that you can't or that you shouldn't. What I am saying is why would you want to?