More Incorrect Stuff: Draw vs. Fade

[Zeph]

Originally Posted by Righty to Lefty

Simply that is exactly what is happening and that is why I taught my friends so quickly how to shape the ball.  If you preset the clubface open or closed no matter how hard you release the club it is goin to come into impact just as it was preset at address unless you manipulate the club.

No it's not, and what you do mean by "manipulate the club"? Good players are able to get into impact with a clubface angle they are looking for, but the average high handicapper will not. Flipping, rolling, "releasing", wrist cupping and all sorts of stuff can cause the clubface to open or close. The timewindow of impact is very small, finding the same angle as at address is a good job.

If you aim the clubface at the target and the swingpath outside of this, you will not find the target, perhaps unless there is very little sidespin. The ball will start 70-80% towards the clubface angle, launching it a bit right or left of the target. When the spin starts taking, it will quickly spin off the target.

Originally Posted by Righty to Lefty

That coupled with and open or closed stance is all you need to shape the ball back to the center line.  This is not a feeling because it is fact that every shot in golf is essentially a straight shot and the clubface determines the shot shape.  If you don't believe me then try if for yourself. Next time you are at the range and you wanna hit a nice lil draw just take your stance 10 yards right/left of your target depending on whether you're righty or lefty. Then point the clubface at your target where you want the ball to end up.  Then hit a straight ball, fully releasing the club at your 10 yard offset target and watch it draw right on back to your actual target. Then do the opposite to hit a fade.   Shaping the ball is very easy to do and you don't have to change not one thing with your swing to do it I garauntee it.

Sorry, but that is incorrect. You may set up with the clubface aimed at the target, but if you get into impact with that position, you won't hit the target. This will work for a lot of people because they get into impact with a clubface not aimed at the target. This is often a result of having worked on this shot a number of times and gradually found a feeling where impact does not emulate address. What you set up to do and what happens at impact are often not the same.

I suggest this article for some reading material: http://thesandtrap.com/b/playing_tips/ball_flight_laws

[shortstop20]

Originally Posted by Righty to Lefty

If you don't believe me then try if for yourself. Next time you are at the range and you wanna hit a nice lil draw just take your stance 10 yards right/left of your target depending on whether you're righty or lefty. Then point the clubface at your target where you want the ball to end up.

I have tried it. In your scenario, lets suppose you were trying to hit it around a tree(and the tree is on your target line). Using your theory, unless I have the club more open at impact than I did at address I WILL hit the tree, time and time again.

There's no debating it.

Science proves it.

......and as far as feel goes.........I don't feel the earth spinning, but that doesn't mean it isn't.

[Righty to Lefty]

Originally Posted by Zeph

No it's not, and what you do mean by "manipulate the club"? Good players are able to get into impact with a clubface angle they are looking for, but the average high handicapper will not. Flipping, rolling, "releasing", wrist cupping and all sorts of stuff can cause the clubface to open or close. The timewindow of impact is very small, finding the same angle as at address is a good job.

If you aim the clubface at the target and the swingpath outside of this, you will not find the target, perhaps unless there is very little sidespin. The ball will start 70-80% towards the clubface angle, launching it a bit right or left of the target. When the spin starts taking, it will quickly spin off the target.

Sorry, but that is incorrect. You may set up with the clubface aimed at the target, but if you get into impact with that position, you won't hit the target. This will work for a lot of people because they get into impact with a clubface not aimed at the target. This is often a result of having worked on this shot a number of times and gradually found a feeling where impact does not emulate address. What you set up to do and what happens at impact are often not the same.

I suggest this article for some reading material: http://thesandtrap.com/b/pla ying_tips/ball_flight_laws

I read it and sure it all makes since that if you have a swing flaw that the technique doesn't work.  But if you can hit a straight shot consistently then my technique absolutely does work and pros and instructors teach it this way simply because it is easy to execute..  I was a 36 hanicapper who had just switched from right to left hand when I learned this technique and it took me a matter of 5 or 6 swings to begin executing these shots but I also had no problems with my swing path.  I would never teach someone with a swing flaw already how to work the ball until their swing was fixed because you have to be able to put your club on the correct path to hit a straight shot before you can hit slight draws and slight fades.  Next off people automatically assume that to hit a fade the path is outside to in and it isn't if you do it correctly because if you open your stance and then swing slightly inside to out which is required to hit a straight shot with and open club face then you  have just hit a straight ball with and open club face and that is a fade and vice versa for a draw.  Sure the path in relation to where the ball ends up is open or closed but in relation to the persons actual stance it is not because you have moved your stance open or or closed. That is why people say that if you can hit a fade repeatedly then you should stick with it because if you have a slightly outside to in path then you have no chance of hitting any of the draw related shots no matter how your clubface is oriented. but if you have either of the  straight  or draw swingpath then you can miss in any direction depending on how your club face is oriented at impact.

[Zeph]

First of all, please use paragraphs, commas and periods, your posts are difficult to understand.

A swing flaw can be lots of things. Setting up with the clubface angle at 0º, intending to be at the same point at impact, and coming into impact at +2º is a flaw. If you do as suggested in the article, you are in fact swinging without a flaw. You set up and intend to do something, and really pull it off. In your example, you set up with one clubface angle at address, and come into impact with a different angle.

You can hit a draw with an out-to-in path, albeit it would be a pull-draw. You can hit any of the 9 shots regardless of your swing path, it's only a matter of clubface angle at impact. A lot of what you say in the last part of your post doesn't make sense.

This is going a bit off topic by the way. If you don't agree with the ball flight laws, start a thread on it, or better yet, use the search function and read up. It's been discussed hundreds of times.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Righty to Lefty

I read it and sure it all makes since that if you have a swing flaw that the technique doesn't work.

It has nothing to do with a swing flaw.

This conversation has now ventured off-topic enough that I'm going to ask that this conversation on the basic ball flight laws be tabled for now. A lot of pros have gotten this wrong over the years - you're not in "terrible" company.