Ball Flight Laws: Pull-Slice

[Taggsy]

Hey guys, I was wondering if you could clear up a couple of points regarding ball flight...

From what I understand a slice is caused when the club face is open at impact. This means the ball is sent out with clockwise spin. This spinning causes the ball to curve out right of target.
For hooks, the club face is closed, the ball receives anti-clockwise spin, and the ball curves out to the left.

For pushes, the ball is hit right of target without any horizontal spin. The club face, although open in relation to the intended target, is perpendicular to the force being applied to it (the swing path, I suppose).
With pulls, the same as above but opposite. Left of target, no horizontal spin, closed club face, but it's perpendicular to direction of force.

Now....
What I don't understand is how the ball could start out left of target, straight, and then slice back to the right. I believe this is termed a Pull-Slice.
Surely, for that initial ball flight (straight left) the club face would need to be closed at impact, and the face perpendicular to the force applied to the ball (if the club face were simply closed, but the force still in the direction of the intended target, this would result in a hook).
So that's established the initial ball flight, but what about the slice at the end?
That must have been caused by the club face being open in relation to the force applied to it at impact....
But that can't be the case because the ball has flown out straight and left to start with....

Thanks in advance for the clarification!

[James_Black]

It's the other way around I think. (I could be wrong)
A proper draw is caused by a open clubface which is why a draw is normally higher than a fade.
A proper face is caused by a closed clubface.

A in-out swingpath plus a open clubface = draw
a out-in swingpath plus a closed clubface = fade.

and that's why a draw starts right and why a fade starts left.

[double_j]

It's the other way around I think. (I could be wrong)

I don't think this is absolutely correct, but I don't think it's absolutely wrong either. I'm not an expert at ball-flight physics by any means but here's my guess:

Side spin is dictated by the clubhead's sideways movement relative to the ball face at the time of impact. It works the same as a tennis or ping pong player putting topspin or backspin on the ball. The starting line of the ball will be dictated by the clubhead angle at impact (i.e., closed or open relative to the target line). Therefore, a 'normal' draw that starts right and works left is struck with a clubhead open to the target line and with a swing path that's moving left to right across the ball (i.e., an in to out swing path). A pull slice would be hit with a clubface closed to the target line at impact and a swing path that imparts left to right spin (i.e., the club head would move across the ball from right to left). Similarly, a straight slice means that you've squared up the clubface at impact (relative to the target line) but that your swing path is cutting across the ball from right to left (i.e., out to in).

[saevel25]

Draw, starts right and draws back left: Clubface is open compared to your target line, but closed compared to your swing path. So an inside out swing path with a greater angle than that of the clubface open.

Fade, opposite, clubface is closed to the target line, but open to the swing path.

Pull, the face is square to the swing path but closed to the target line, usually caused by an outside in swing or ball to far forward in stance
Push, the face is square to the swing path but open to the target line, usually caused by an inside out swing or ball to far back in the stance

Pull Slice, should not be possible. I think this is more of a misconception. Most people who hit the ball with a slice will aim more in the direction in which they hit the slice thinking that they need to play it more to get it to keep it in play, makes sense, but golf is always reversed in logic. So, my theory is that a pull slice is caused by a person aiming left, so there target line is not off to the right. They square up the clubface more, but still open to the swing path a great deal. Now the person will hit the ball further left due to squarer clubface but still hit a slice do to the open to the swing path. Its really just a smaller version of there slice because they closed the face more, and there aiming so far to the left to compensate for the slice to begin with.

[westcyderydin]

inside to out swing + open clubface = push.
outside to in swing + closed clubface = pull.

isnt that kinda obvious.

[iacas]

Now....

Simple:

The clubface is closed (let's say 5 degrees) to the target. So the ball starts out left of the target. The club path is out to in, let's say 10 degrees to the target. The ball will curve right because the club path is farther left than the clubface is pointing. That's all there is to it. For any ball flight, you can start with the clubface for the starting line and the curve based on the path relative to the face.

inside to out swing + open clubface = push.

It's not obvious because there are degrees.

Let's take the first one - in to out with an open clubface. Here are all three variations. Imagine the clubface is pointing 10 degrees to the right of the target in each case. a) club path 10 degrees in to out - straight push b) club path 5 degrees in to out - push-fade c) club path 15 degrees in to out - push-draw James, be careful too... things are relative. "Open to what"? You have to say.

[Taggsy]

Fantastic, cheers Iacas, that's cleared it up for me.

I only ask because my driver especially has a massive Pull-Slice, and I couldn't understand what caused it.
So my clubface is closed in relation to the target, but open in relation to the force applied to it (the swing path).

[Zeph]

Here's a little graphic chart that explains the various flight paths: http://fjorla.net/gfx/golfballflight1.png

Yours would be number three. The amount of pull and slice is determined by how much your club face is closed and how much inside the swing path goes.

Using the picture for flight number three, you can (imaginary) adjust the blue and red arrow. The more you move the red arrow to the left, the more to the left the ball will start. The more you move the purple arrow to the left of the red arrow, the more sidespin you will impart on the ball and the more it will slice to the right.

[Taggsy]

Zeph, that's an awesome chart!
I've bookmarked it for future reference.

I don't know about you, but I much prefer being told why my ball flight is the way it is, rather than just how to fix it.

Thanks again for the help chaps!

[ldpk]

great chart helped me figure out why I slice.

[pweenie]

Zeph that's a good chart.  What I would like to see included for all of those graphics is the "target line" - that would give a clearer picture IMO.  Shot 5 is a straight shot which would be the target line for all the others.

I'm from the old school so get confused with things like "push draw" but that is splitting hairs.