How Do YOU Handle Cheating?

[tulefog]

I take a different approach to this. Accusing someone of cheating is pretty severe. Also, golf is a gentlemen's game where the player is supposed to assess his own penalties. Even though the player in the OP had been playing one ball all day, if he had the other ball in his pocket, it is certainly possible that he could have simply played the wrong ball on this hole. The point is that no one really knows for sure, except for presumably the player (and he in fact may not know for sure). I think it is absolutely appropriate for you to report what you witnessed and let the committe make its own decision. If in fact the player was cheating, the fact that this has come up as an issue will probably go a long way towards resolving the problem.

[WUTiger]

I was lucky as far as learning the rules go. Back in the 1960s, I caddied at a country that had a series of two-hour observe-and-do training sessions out on the course for apprentice caddies.

So, I got a good understanding of the rules before I started playing regularly. Also, watching pro tournaments on TV was a good learning tool.

Anyway, what to do about newbie golfers who don't know the rules. In friendly rounds of people I know personally, I take it upon myself to coach them on the rules. I usually give them a quick summary of things at the end of each nine. Then, I remind them that in a tournament, they could get disqualified, and get a reputation as a cheat.

As far as competition goes, scrambles can be the most annoying. At a military base tournament, I got paired with a couple of civilian contractors who had their own rules of golf. Foot mashies to alleviate OB, scraping sand from behind the ball in the trap, !!!! The group behind me contained an active-duty officer I knew, and I told him that due to irregularities, I was withdrawing at nine - an imaginary emergency.

At the turn, I announced I had to leave. The contractors said, "I didn't really want to play anyway," and headed for the parking lot.

The officer said something to the tournament director, and about 15 minutes later I get reloaded into another group as a replacement.

[Fairway_CY]

Unfortunately... still no word as to what's going to happen.

In the end... I'm of the belief that the rules of golf are the RULES OF GOLF. There is no such thing as... 'the rules of golf that I play by'. You either play golf... or you walk around a park, carrying sticks and hitting a white (or yellow, or pink, or whatever) ball. I've been told that my partner (hopefully former) absolutely believes he did nothing wrong and doesn't REMEMBER playing the wrong ball. I know what I saw... without a doubt... and he played the wrong ball. End of story.

Why this guy attempted to cheat is beyond me. It's VERY possible he was mistaken about which ball he played first... but, a simple acknowledgement of what ball was going to be his provisional would have avoided this whole scenario. He didn't announce what he was playing off the tee on that hole, nor did he announce his provisional ball.

If he legitimately made a mistake... it's one thing... but he STILL didn't play by the rules of golf and he STILL tried to claim for the improper score despite being told by three witnesses that he was wrong. Plus... as I said... I've caught him in some other rules gaffes in the past. He needs to learn the rules before attempting to play in any sort of organized event again.

Just my opinion. Hopefully word of the final decision will be released this evening.

CY

[Bigacito]

Just so I know I am following this thread, the cheating he is accused of is not deliberately lying about which ball was hit first and which ball was hit second, is it? I mean, none of you saw when he teed up both times that he hadn't this one time used the found ball first and the marked ball second. It just seems awfully, conveniently coincidental. Therefore it is possible that he honestly hit his first shot without paying attention to what ball he hit (I could see myself doing this) and then hit his provisional without noticing which one it was (ditto)? So is the cheating that when you were all standing over the balls and he could not unequivocally state that he was sure he hit the found ball first but then proceeded to play it that he committed the cheating act?

And just out of curiosity, what should I do if make the same mistake? I often carry around similar balls and when I hit a provisional it could well be the exact same type of have been hitting (though not anymore. Next round I am gonna make sure my extra ball is different!). So if I find my self standing over two identical balls, not sure which was hit first, what should I do? Call them both lost balls and hit again? Or what if I hit one in a hazard and I get there and lying there is Taylor Made 2 but I suddenly can't remember if I was hitting a 2 or a 3? I coulda sworn I was hitting a 3 but here is a 2 sitting right where my ball should be, no other ball around. And I know I have some 2's in my bag...

[Fairway_CY]

Just so I know I am following this thread, the cheating he is accused of is not deliberately lying about which ball was hit first and which ball was hit second, is it?

In this instance... there were three of us that witnessed his first ball go in to the woods and his second ball stay OUT of the woods. We told him that WHEN he hit the balls. He never identified which ball he was hitting. So... in this specific instance, the cheating is more of a lie. He said the ball we found (which three of us know was his second ball) was the initial ball and played the hole as if that were the case. He then attempted to claim a score which was 2 strokes lower than what he ACTUALLY scored.

Is it possible that he hit the shots without paying attention? Absolutely. He's done it in the past. Is it possible that the ball he played WAS his first? No. Three of us saw it land IN the woods after getting a hard kick right off a mound... and three of us saw his provisional land safely in play. If it was me in that situation and I WASN'T absolutely sure... I'd take the 2 stroke penalty and assume I was hitting the provisional. That's me though. I won't compromise my reputation for the sake of 2 strokes. Others may say... "well, I guess I was hitting a 3" and play that ball out. IF, as in our case, however... someone said to me that there was no way that it COULD be my ball... I'd have to take the 2 stroke penalty. The reason I say that is because where he was hitting from, he had NO POSSIBLE WAY of seeing where his ball (either of them) came down. CY

[Fourputt]

In this instance... there were three of us that witnessed his first ball go in to the woods and his second ball stay OUT of the woods. We told him that WHEN he hit the balls. He never identified which ball he was hitting. So... in this specific instance, the cheating is more of a lie. He said the ball we found (which three of us know was his second ball) was the initial ball and played the hole as if that were the case. He then attempted to claim a score which was 2 strokes lower than what he ACTUALLY scored.

Actually, by the rules if a players is unable to identify which ball is which, then both are lost, and he should return to the tee and play his 5th shot. However, the rules do give an out if the player did play a provisional ball.... the ball which is found and played is deemed to to be that ball.

Note solution 3 as the closest to the OP's scenario. Solution 4 could possibly be applied too. In both solutions, the ball played is deemed to be the provisional ball.

27/11 Provisional Ball Not Distinguishable from Original Ball A player entitled to play a provisional ball from the tee plays it into the same area as his original ball. The balls have identical markings and the player cannot distinguish between them. Following are various situations and the solutions, which are based on equity (Rule 1-4), when the above circumstances exist and one or both of the balls are found within a search of five minutes: Situation 1: One ball is found in a water hazard and the other ball is not found. Solution 1: The ball that was found must be presumed to be the provisional ball. Situation 2:Both balls are found in a water hazard. Solution 2: As the player's original ball is lost in the water hazard due to his inability to identify it (see analogous Decision 27/10), the player must proceed under Rule 26-1 with respect to the original ball (estimating the spot where the ball last crossed the margin of the hazard, if necessary — see Decision 26-1/17); his next stroke would be his third. Situation 3: One ball is found in bounds and the other ball is lost or is found out of bounds. Solution 3: The ball in bounds must be presumed to be the provisional ball. Situation 4: Both balls are found in bounds, whether in a playable or an unplayable lie, and (1) one ball is in a water hazard and the other is not or (2) both balls lie through the green or in a bunker. Solution 4: One could argue that both balls are lost. However, it would be inequitable to require the player to return to the tee, playing 5, when the player has found both balls but does not know which is the original and which the provisional. Accordingly, the player must select one of the balls, treat it as his provisional ball and abandon the other.

[Gioguy21]

Fairway, which club are you talking about? i'm in the area, if you need a new partner, i'd be interested...? as far as i see it, 1) he hit a ball into the woods by 3 sets of eyes, to play a provisional ball, failing to note what ball it is/markings/etc...2) he then says the ball in play and not in the woods is his first ball, making (1) a lie. 3) you guys give him an out and he gives the big ol' f u 4) proceeds to play ball number 2 5) claims 2 strokes better on the hole by playing that ball, therefore cheating. As far as i'm concerned based on the facts, this man is gone. If there's no tolerance for cheating, and THREE people saw this man cheating including his partner, his bags are packed.

[tulefog]

It appears our facts are drifting on us.

In the original post, there was no statement that the three of you positively saw the first ball go into the woods. Here is the OP:

"From there, he hit a good shot... but it strayed right a bit and over some mounds that, if it hit them, would have kicked his ball into the woods . We advised him to hit a provisional, just in case . Now, all day long... he was playing Titleist balls with an identifying mark. When he hit his provisional, he didn't tell us what ball or mark he was using to differentiate... and he hit his provisional in the same general area .

When we arrived up towards the area in which his shots landed... we found one ball just outside the tree line, and later we found another in the trees, pretty much dead."

Now you are stating "there were three of us that witnessed his first ball go in to the woods and his second ball stay OUT of the woods . We told him that WHEN he hit the balls."

Accusing someone of cheating is pretty serious business - a far more serious infraction than breaking a golf rule. If you are going to accuse someone of cheating, you should be very sure you have your facts straight.

[Fairway_CY]

Accusing someone of cheating is pretty serious business - a far more serious infraction than breaking a golf rule. If you are going to accuse someone of cheating, you should be very sure you have your facts straight.

You're absolutely right. In my original posting... I didn't state at all what I saw. I stated absolute facts. For example, as you pointed out:

"... but it strayed right a bit and over some mounds that, IF it hit them, would have kicked his ball into the woods." That's a fact. What we all SAW, though... was the ball kick into the woods. What I posted was what we told HIM at the course. The reason we said "just in case" is because he didn't WANT to hit a provisional ball. He DID hit a provisional, which DID end up in the same general area... but about 10 yards further up and IN BOUNDS. We all CLEARLY saw his ball fly beyond the mounds and land LEFT of the cart path, well in bounds. Unless it hopped 10 yards backwards... there was no way it could find the woods as it had reached the clearing. You are correct that we should be sure we have our facts straight. We are VERY certain we do. Two balls were played from the trap. The first went in to the woods. The second cleared the mounds AND the woods. He then claimed the second ball to be his first. We gave him the opportunity to change his story... and he didn't. He then played the remainder of the hole and never bothered to assess the penalty. I completely understand your view... and I probably should have stated exactly what we saw in the original post. Instead, I stated what we told him at the time. However, from our vantage point (three-plus feet above him in the fairway with no obstructions like the lip he had in front of him)... we all watched BOTH shots fly AND land. There was no question as to which ball was which. The ONLY questions was if the original ball was OB or not (because we didn't see stakes from where we were) and if it would be found. CY

[Bigacito]

Ok, if you and three others saw the ball go out, then that is an open and shut case. I mean, no matter how convinced I was about which ball I thought I was using, if three other golfers playing in competition told me the facts as laid out, and one of the golfers was my playing partner, then I would have to assume I was mistaken and take the penalty. I mean, the only other explanation is that you are all part of a conspiracy to make me think I am crazy. And if I believe that, I need to quit this league anyway. And maybe go back to the full dosage on my meds.

[Fairway_CY]

Ok, if you and three others saw the ball go out, then that is an open and shut case. I mean, no matter how convinced I was about which ball I thought I was using, if three other golfers playing in competition told me the facts as laid out, and one of the golfers was my playing partner, then I would have to assume I was mistaken and take the penalty. I mean, the only other explanation is that you are all part of a conspiracy to make me think I am crazy. And if I believe that, I need to quit this league anyway. And maybe go back to the full dosage on my meds.

I think that was the biggest issue in all of this is that we first gave him the opportunity to correct himself WITHOUT flat out calling him a liar. Once this issue was brought to the committee... he CONTINUED to say he didn't play that ball and that the ball we found was his first DESPITE the fact that three of us had said point-blank that there was no possible way. Then, once he stated his point of view to the committee, he attempted to turn it around on us and say... and I quote... "they conspired against me to change my score".

IF he was in contention... that MIGHT hold some water. He wasn't. He finished 11 strokes off the pace even IF he kept the score he said he posted... 13 off the pace when the penalty was added. There was no REASON to cheat, which is why I didn't understand it. A few people on the committee made that argument... why would he cheat and then continue to stand by his story. He may have honestly believed that he was correct... but when there is everybody else in the group telling him otherwise... I don't see how he COULD believe he was correct, especially with the fact that he was IN a bunker 3 full feet below us WITH the lip and mounds obstructing his view. CY

[HoosierGolfer]

I recently hit a tee shot in league play that everyone (the four of us) agreed may have landed out of bounds. When I went to the bag for another ball for the provisional, I clearly stated to everyone what brand of ball I was playing and how it was marked and showed everyone the ball I was about to hit so everyone would be clear when we looked for my first ball, which lucky for me was found to be in play.
If everyone would do this, there would be few problems like the one here.

[Fairway_CY]

I recently hit a tee shot in league play that everyone (the four of us) agreed may have landed out of bounds. When I went to the bag for another ball for the provisional, I clearly stated to everyone what brand of ball I was playing and how it was marked and showed everyone the ball I was about to hit so everyone would be clear when we looked for my first ball, which lucky for me was found to be in play.

That's exactly what SHOULD happen every time. I do it. I always play the Callaway Warbird Plus balls. If I'm playing a number 4 and I hit it towards the woods or a hazard or whatever... I'll pick another number and announce what my first WAS and what my provisional IS. Not only is this the proper procedure... but it's also listed on the club website as one of the rules so as to speed up play.

CY

[mcotter]

I try not to get caught

[Brakkus]

The original story is this thread got me thinking about integrity in golf.I find it hard to take when others flout the rules.We played a foursome and the usual cheating going on,lost balls,free drops,improving lies,rehitting and not adding it to the score.A whole host of stuff.I lose 2 balls and count the strokes,I was even encouraged to improve my lie.Now none of the other 3 want to take golf seriously and they don't care saying as much.Fine if you want to cheat yourself to feel better about the game no problem.

What I do find annoying is when the scores are toatlled there's only 3 strokes in it and 3 of us are tied.Then one of the group says were all the same standard.I'm not a great player by any means but it's obvious who is playing golf in the group.It kind of negates all the work I have done of my game in one sentence,but then I know the truth of the matter that the score is an ego trip,and the proof is out there on the course smacking you in the face.You can see the evidence,and I guess I'll never win when I play with the group,but that's the beauty of golf,it's about your character,honesty,your work ethic,it really reflects who you are.

If you cheat what is it saying about you,it's not just golf?

[Fairway_CY]

Brakkus... I think the majority of us here feel the same way. We play the game becuase we love it and we respect the rules by which we're SUPPOSED to play.

I'm really writing to update everybody. The decision is final and my partner has been removed from the club. At the beginning of the process... there were seven members of the committee who had to vote. Early on... it appeared to be a 3-3 tie in the votes. The 3 guys who wanted to keep him said they couldn't see handing down the 'death penalty' of our club to a member without concrete evidence.

Later, these members each contact all members of the foursome individually for their sides of the story. It seems that after some email communication with the member in question... his story changed multiple times (type of ball, markings, announcement of using the provisional, being able to see where the ball ended up, etc). When they phoned him to inquire as to WHICH story was true... he stammered a lot and gave ANOTHER story altogether.

In the end... this was enough for the committee to remove him. From what I heard... the final tally was 5-1 in favor of removal with a single voter abstaining. The single vote he received for staying was based on my (ex)partner having some personal issues at home and the voter felt sympathetic towards him. Not exactly the best of reasons... but - whatever.

Now - I've got a match tomorrow... and I'll be playing for both singles and doubles as my partner is gone and my opponent's partner will miss this event. I'll have to speak with the committee regarding the next steps involved because I'm not sure how I go about replacing my partner... if I'm allowed to bring in a new member or if I'll be paired up with someone who's already been on the waiting list.

CY

[The Recreational Golfer]

At my men's club, during our weekly low gross/low net, at the first sign of rule breaking, the player is politely advised that the rules don't allow that and this is what you should have done. Nip it in the bud. Politely. And play on.

In our tournaments, the matter would be settled on the spot with penalty strokes assessed or a DQ, depending. No hand wringing. Deal with it when it happens.

If there is denial, write down both scores and bring the matter up to the tournament committee when the round is over.

[Shindig]

At my men's club, during our weekly low gross/low net, at the first sign of rule breaking, the player is politely advised that the rules don't allow that and this is what you should have done. Nip it in the bud. Politely. And play on.

There was a prominent rules official - I think - who got interested in the rules because of a polite reminder. He had played a few rounds of golf, joined a men's league, and on the first hole, tried to improve his lie in the fairway. Someone asked him what he was doing, and he said he's just looking for a good lie. "We don't do that here," he was told, and thus began his fascination with the rules.

Man, I wish I could remember who it was or have a citation for the story.