getting "stuck" on the downswing

[andef]

So I was having a lesson with the pro here and he asked me about my miss with the driver. i told him that i usually slice the ball on bad hit, but when i actually thought about my ball-flight i realized that my shots start left of the target and turn more to the left on these misses. he described this to me this way: when you really go for a drive (in my case), you rotate your body so quickly that you leave the club so far behind you that it drops too far inside (hence starting to the left) and not giving yourself time to square up the clubface which leads to the ball turning more to the left. to give me an example, he said that it is the same thing that causes tiger's big misses to the right.
is this correct?

[Shanks A Million]

So I was having a lesson with the pro here and he asked me about my miss with the driver. i told him that i usually slice the ball on bad hit, but when i actually thought about my ball-flight i realized that my shots start left of the target and turn more to the left on these misses. he described this to me this way: when you really go for a drive (in my case), you rotate your body so quickly that you leave the club so far behind you that it drops too far inside (hence starting to the left) and not giving yourself time to square up the clubface which leads to the ball turning more to the left. to give me an example, he said that it is the same thing that causes tiger's big misses to the right.

Somewhat. From what I know, getting "stuck" is when the hands get so far behind you, you have to flip the club to get it to the ball. You can either leave the face open and push it, or shut it and pull-hook it.

[CoolBreeze20]

I have always considered "getting stuck" as a swing coming TOO MUCH from inside to out. The hands drop too much to the inside while the lower body/hips fire open too quickly, causing the hands to get "stuck" behind the body and causing either big pushes/slices (clubhead open at impact) and vicious pull hooks (club face too closed at impact). Tiger does this a LOT now with the "loop" Haney has him doing.

[shortstop20]

It can be from several things.....too far inside swing path is the most common. But poor body movements on the downswing can also cause it(even thoug the shaft is on plane). For example, if you crowd the ball on your downswing you are stuck, even if you're right on plane, There's just no room for the hands to square the face like they should. Not to mention that this lower body movement that I speak of naturally puts the club in a more stuck position. Think about it, the closer you move to the ball, the more apt you are to being "stuck".

Look at my avatar. I have the tendency to flex my knees more on the downswing than they were on the backswing, this causes my body to move towards the ball on the downswing. Some days it wreaks havoc on my swing. For a while, to correct it, I thought, well, you must be too far inside, so just feel like you're going over the top on this next one. Then I'd hit pulls and pull hooks. In fact, it wasn't my swing plane that was hurting me, if was my body movements.

Since then, I have learned that on the downswing, the best ballstriker's either move their tush line "deeper"(away from the ball) or leave it in the same spot as where it was at address. Crowd the ball on the downswing and you're doomed to inconsistency. I'm working hard to get rid of this as we speak.

Don't think that your swing plane is the only thing that can get you "stuck", that's the moral of this post.

This may or may not be your problem, but hopefully it will give you some insight into the "stuck" problem. Just remember, even the best player in the world struggles with this, that's what humbles me.

[iacas]

... you leave the club so far behind you that it drops too far inside (hence starting to the left) and not giving yourself time to square up the clubface...

Question for you: what determines the starting line of the golf ball? Swing path or clubface angle? Your pro (and you) seem to have it backwards.

to give me an example, he said that it is the same thing that causes tiger's big misses to the right.

Tiger's big pushes when he's stuck are typically big straight pushes. No fade/slice on them. He tries to compensate and then he hits quick hooks.

I doubt you're actually "stuck" and coming from the inside. I'd bet you're coming over the top AND have an open clubface.

[Shanks A Million]

Tiger's big pushes when he's stuck are typically big straight pushes. No fade/slice on them. He tries to compensate and then he hits quick hooks.

I agree with that 100%. When I get into a "stuck" mode, I hit the biggest monster push hooks you'll ever see. I usually get my plane well too high, and so getting stuck is sometimes a problem when I start to loop the club back down behind me. When it happens, the ball almost always starts right, way right, and turns HARD left or stays straight.

[westcyderydin]

when i get stuck i cuss a lot, but not as much as when i get the shanks

[andef]

I doubt you're actually "stuck" and coming from the inside. I'd bet you're coming over the top AND have an open clubface.

So a pro with 10 years of experience can't tell the difference with an over the top swing and one that's coming from the inside? After repeatedly watching my swing he told me that that is what I do wrong so I'm pretty sure I'm not coming over the top. At +3 handicap he should be able to give me the right suggestions to improve my swing.

[iacas]

So a pro with 10 years of experience can't tell the difference with an over the top swing and one that's coming from the inside? After repeatedly watching my swing he told me that that is what I do wrong so I'm pretty sure I'm not coming over the top. At +3 handicap he should be able to give me the right suggestions to improve my swing.

Nick Faldo won six majors and he doesn't know the ball flight laws. I'm simply saying there's a good chance your instructor doesn't either.

Unless he's put your swing on a decent high-speed video, yeah, that's exactly what I'm saying - that there's a good chance he's dead wrong.

[Zeph]

If the ball starts left and continues left, your club face is open at impact, and your swing path is somewhere inside that angle. As long as the club face is open enough, you can't really tell where the swing path was, except not at the same angle of the club face or farther in-to-out (unlikely). If you manage to get the club face square, ball starting straight, you can tell by the ball flight what your swing path was. Slice = out-to-in, hook = in-to-out.

If the pro believe the old ball flight laws, it is perfectly possible he can't tell the difference, yes. A video would have helped though.

[andef]

Nick Faldo won six majors and he doesn't know the ball flight laws. I'm simply saying there's a good chance your instructor doesn't either.

What do you mean? It's a point I've heard many people make without understanding what they mean.

To answer your second point, he's filmed my swing and gone through it with a swing analysis software. According to him, my swing is a little too shallow with longer clubs so we've been working to improve my swing plane sp that it's not such an in to out swing.

[iacas]

First, you never answered my question. I asked you "Question for you: what determines the starting line of the golf ball? Swing path or clubface angle? Your pro (and you) seem to have it backwards."

I also said "seem" so maybe you have it right. We can't know without a good video. We're just trying to use what you've said based on your guesses. But in my experience, a ball that starts left (you're a lefty) of the target AND THEN SLICES (further left) is not caused by a swing that comes too far from the inside. "Stuck" is a way to hit quick hooks and big blocks - typically NOT slices.

To answer your second point, he's filmed my swing and gone through it with a swing analysis software. According to him, my swing is a little too shallow with longer clubs so we've been working to improve my swing plane sp that it's not such an in to out swing.

I'm still not prepared to change what I think - that he's gone about diagnosing your problems improperly. Face angle is the first thing I'd look at. If the ball's starting left and then fading, you might be coming over the top, from inside, or square - we don't know because you haven't told us the relative amounts of how much your ball curves relative to how far left it starts.

Got any good high-speed video? Would clear things up instantly. Update: think of it this way. If the ball is starting 5 degrees left (which is quite a bit), your clubface is about 10 degrees left at impact. To then slice the ball from there, you have to be coming less than five degrees from the inside. 4 degrees from the inside is not easy to see on video and it'd barely produce movement. 2 degrees from the inside would produce some movement, but even then the ball wouldn't curve as much as it had start offline because the differential is only 3 degrees. So it starts 5 degrees offline and curves another three degrees (these numbers aren't exact, but they're close). So if the ball starts 5 degrees left, and then curves just as much as it started offline, you're almost definitely not coming from the inside. If your pro has the wrong (old) ball flight laws and thinks the ball is starting left because your swing path is that way, then he'll see what he wants to see in the video even if it's not there. It happens all the time - and far too many pros (particularly the older ones) screw things up because they believe so adamantly in something that's wrong - the old ball flight laws.

[andef]

First, you never answered my question. I asked you "Question for you: what determines the starting line of the golf ball? Swing path or clubface angle? Your pro (and you) seem to have it backwards."

According to my pro, the swingpath determines the starting direction and the angle of the clubface determines whether it will curve or not. However, I read on the Stack and Tilt website it's the other way around. If that was the case, then I guess I'm coming over the top. However, I not familiar enough with ballflight laws and everything else to be able to tell whether I'm coming over the top or not.

[iacas]

According to my pro, the swingpath determines the starting direction and the angle of the clubface determines whether it will curve or not.

Right. Which is exactly why I said you may not be coming down from the inside and getting stuck.

However, I not familiar enough with ballflight laws and everything else to be able to tell whether I'm coming over the top or not.

And without video we can't really be either. You can tell somewhat by seeing whether your ball curves more to the left than it starts to the left.

If your ball - if hit straight (but pushed) - would have gone 10 yards left of the target but it curves 30 yards in the air, you're open and over the top. If it starts 10 yards left and then curves only 2 yards, you're slightly from the inside (but not as much as the face is open).

[andef]

Right. Which is exactly why I said you may not be coming down from the inside and getting stuck.

My shots tend to start left more than they curve. On bad shots, they ball starts 15 yards left of the target and then curves 5 yards at most. According to the modern ballflight laws (from what I understand) it means that the clubface is open but I'm coming slightly from the inside as you said in your previous comment.

Unfortunatelu, I don't have any recent swing videos on my computer, the only ones I have are from February and it's a iron swing.