Face Facts, AJ

[Weezy]

Trying to control the clubface with your hands is so difficult, as it relies on perfect timing. That's not to say it can't be done, but it takes a lot of practice. Once I preset the clubface for draw, fade or straight shots, I don't try to manipulate the clubface at all. I don't try to manipulate my swing path either. Just pick my target line and go.

I try not to open and close the face consciously but it opens and closes for everyone. If you believe in aimpoint (which i do) then you do have to get your hands back to a certain spot. That is the only way to control he club. Everyone does it, whether you are aware of it is another matter. You can't just turn back and through without controlling your arms and hands. As hogan said you must have educated hands. Also the knuckle down thing is not dependent on timing because, just like when you close the face at address, it doesn't have to happen right before impact. You just come through differently for the draw than you do or a fade. It is a feel thing, you know what it feels like to hi a draw and i shoot for that feeling. If you watch the pro's i can't name one that presets the clubface at address for a draw or fade. They are two different swings. If your swing path doesn't change then you won't get a very good flight on either the draw or fade, depending upon your "stock" swing.

[Harmonious]

I try not to open and close the face consciously but it opens and closes for everyone. If you believe in aimpoint (which i do) then you do have to get your hands back to a certain spot. That is the only way to control he club. Everyone does it, whether you are aware of it is another matter. You can't just turn back and through without controlling your arms and hands. As hogan said you must have educated hands. Also the knuckle down thing is not dependent on timing because, just like when you close the face at address, it doesn't have to happen right before impact. You just come through differently for the draw than you do or a fade. It is a feel thing, you know what it feels like to hi a draw and i shoot for that feeling. If you watch the pro's i can't name one that presets the clubface at address for a draw or fade. They are two different swings. If your swing path doesn't change then you won't get a very good flight on either the draw or fade, depending upon your "stock" swing.

I would disagree that no pro presets the clubface for the shot shape they want. Some do and some don't. Personally, I feel that trying to make more than one type of swing is counterproductive to consistency. If I make a good swing, the ball flight will be just fine.

[Weezy]

Name one? The problem with presetting is you run the risks of hooding the club and hittin low screaming hooks or flat out slices. I want my club in a neutral position at address and pretty much that same position at the top. If you preset then you are trying to keep that same degree of closed or open throughout the swing. The clubface must rotate through the swing so not trying to close it or hold it off a bit at impact will lead to even more inconsistent contact due to the fact that you are trying to fight your natural shape. If you naturally hit a fade then trying to hit a draw by presetting and using the same swing will be fighting your fade inclanation and vice versa. So you are actually going to be less consistent that way. Unless you Kenny Perry style it and hit only fades or only draws. A fade swing is different from a draw swing just like the driver swing is different from an iron swing.

[GrahamD]

Well you do realize that the greatest ball strikers ever from at least 1-7 all play with a cupped left wrist right? ALL OF EM!! And Tiger always had tons of club head rotation as evidenced by every analysis ever and his own tip "turn the left knuckles to the ground" Also gary player and lee trevino both stated that tigers problem is his flat left rist and being laid off. So if his tendency is to rtate the club shut anyways then what part of open it up in the backswing would be wrong? You basically have the haney method of the laid off flat left wrist fighting tiger's natural ton of clubhead rotation. I agree that its not necessary to rotate the club open and shut but if the greatest ball strikers EVER did it then how can you say it is wrong?

gary player did not say that, he was the one to say recently that ''tiger is too wristy for a big guy'' he even offered woods some teaching advice.

before 2005 tiger had always played with a square to slightly closed clubface birth - 1997 = through this period he played with a almost fully shut face (clubface points towards sky) he needed to be super quick with his power to hold the face square but it suited him as his hips were so fat 1998-2004 = under butch he moved to a more square to still slightly shut face, this is the swing when tiger was at his best and imo he should have never changed it 2005-present = tiger now has very weak grip and still maintains a flat left wrist but not enough to remove hand action from his swing, oh and just to remind you ben hogan spent 40 years of his life before he finally learned his swing, he hit thousands upon thousands of balls all week long, how could he not perfect it with his cupped left wrist

[Harmonious]

Name one? The problem with presetting is you run the risks of hooding the club and hittin low screaming hooks or flat out slices. I want my club in a neutral position at address and pretty much that same position at the top. If you preset then you are trying to keep that same degree of closed or open throughout the swing. The clubface must rotate through the swing so not trying to close it or hold it off a bit at impact will lead to even more inconsistent contact due to the fact that you are trying to fight your natural shape. If you naturally hit a fade then trying to hit a draw by presetting and using the same swing will be fighting your fade inclanation and vice versa. So you are actually going to be less consistent that way. Unless you Kenny Perry style it and hit only fades or only draws. A fade swing is different from a draw swing just like the driver swing is different from an iron swing.

Fella by the name of Nicklaus. He did OK with it.

Maybe you didn't understand what I meant by presetting the club. To do that, I figure how much spin (draw or fade) I want to put on the ball. I then set the clubface that amount, then grip the club. Let's say I want to draw a driver 15 yards or so. I rotate the face a degree or two counterclockwise, then grip the club. If I then swing normally along my aim line (which is 15 yards right of where I want the ball to end) it should end up about where I want it. Notice I don't say it will start out along my aim line, but it will move toward my target. The only way I will hit an uncontrolled hook is if I rotate my hands too much, or screw up my swing in some way. If I am successful in keeping my grip square to my swing plane, the face angle at impact is the same as at setup. Others may accomplish the same thing in another way. I just think this is the easiest and the least likely to be inconsistent. 75% of the time I just want to hit it straight, anyway, so it's really no big deal.

[Weezy]

gary player did not say that, he was the one to say recently that ''tiger is too wristy for a big guy'' he even offered woods some teaching advice.

Gary player most certainly did say it on the golf channel and he pointed out that flat left wrist specifically!

[Weezy]

Fella by the name of Nicklaus. He did OK with it.

Nicklaus rarely hit a draw. The clubface decides where the ball starts not finishes, if you set up to play a 15 yard draw and swing out to the right of the target 15 yards then you get a ball that starts at the target and draws 15 yards to the left of it according to the rules of ball flight. Returning the grip back square to the swing plane is trying to control the hands is it not?

[Harmonious]

OK, you know more about golf than Jack Nicklaus and me. Good for you. I guess those drives on mine that have a gentle draw and end up in the middle of the fairway have been hallucinations. Jack must have been loco, too.

[iacas]

You just come through differently for the draw than you do or a fade. It is a feel thing, you know what it feels like to hi a draw and i shoot for that feeling.

I come through the same way. I alter ball position slightly (forward or back a ball at the most), I alter handle position (about the same amount), and I can alter where my feet and clubface point. I make the same swing, because I understand that we play golf on a plane and I'm manipulating the circle a little bit. My finishes should look identical.

If you watch the pro's i can't name one that presets the clubface at address for a draw or fade. They are two different swings.

Depending on what you mean, they all do. And no, they're not two different swings.

The problem with presetting is you run the risks of hooding the club and hittin low screaming hooks or flat out slices.

Why would you hood the club to hit a draw? That's great for a pull-draw - aim body WAY right, hood the club to really keep it low - but every (right-handed) pro who plays golf well aims the clubface right of their target to hit a hook or draw.

I want my club in a neutral position at address and pretty much that same position at the top.

And you can do that with a normal swing... just by changing the things I alluded to - ball position, handle position, and aiming lines.

If you naturally hit a fade then trying to hit a draw by presetting and using the same swing will be fighting your fade inclanation and vice versa.

I naturally play a draw and can hit a fade just as easily... I make the same swing but adjust a few things at setup. Specifically, obviously, the face has to be aiming left of the target instead of right. That's one obvious one...

So you are actually going to be less consistent that way. Unless you Kenny Perry style it and hit only fades or only draws. A fade swing is different from a draw swing just like the driver swing is different from an iron swing.

I disagree with BOTH parts. You wouldn't see any difference in my fade or draw swings unless you were looking for it (and you really wouldn't see any down-the-line), and my driver swing is the same as my other swings too.

I rotate the face a degree or two counterclockwise, then grip the club. If I then swing normally along my aim line (which is 15 yards right of where I want the ball to end) it should end up about where I want it. Notice I don't say it will start out along my aim line, but it will move toward my target.

That may work for you, but you're not really observing the ball flight laws if you're closing the face in your grip to hit a draw. A great many people say they do the things you do, and they actually set up that way, but they alter how they swing because if you're aimed 15 yards right and your clubface is square at the target, that's not a draw that works towards the target, but one that starts at it and works left of it immediately. So you're doing that at setup, but you're not hitting the ball that way.

FWIW, I open the face in my grip to hit a draw and then manipulate where I'm hitting the ball on the circle slightly. The bigger the hook the more I open the face relative to my body because the more the ball will draw. In the end, if it works for you, great... It doesn't work for me, though, and knowing not only the ball flight laws but how to slightly manipulate the way I come into the ball by small setup changes, etc. allows me to make the same swing with all of my clubs to produce different ball flights.

[mjtoal]

Back when I used to try to draw and fade, I drew by letting the arms swing through but faded by holding off the arms. It used to be used that arms swingers were usually drawers, e.g. Woosnam, and body swingers were usually faders, e.g. Nicklaus.

[Harmonious]

That may work for you, but you're not really observing the ball flight laws if you're closing the face in your grip to hit a draw. A great many people say they do the things you do, and they actually set up that way, but they alter how they swing because if you're aimed 15 yards right and your clubface is square at the target, that's not a draw that works towards the target, but one that starts at it and works left of it immediately. So you're doing that at setup, but you're not hitting the ball that way.

I think the confusion that Weezy has with my description is that I didn't say my clubface was aimed at the center of the fairway. I said I closed the face a degree or two. By my trigonometry calculations, one degree of face angle works out to about 4 yards in 250. So if I preset the face angle 1 degree closed and hopefully make a good swing along my aim line (which is 15 yards right), the ball should start out 4 yards left of my aim line (11 yards right of the center of the fairway), then curve left some more. It is a pull draw, if you will.

We are saying the same thing, only I work off of my aim line, which I would consider my "target". You would consider my clubface "open" to the final target, I consider it "closed" to the aim line. Hopefully, the ball doesn't know the difference and is excitedly running down toward the center of the fairway.

[iacas]

We are saying the same thing, only I work off of my aim line, which I would consider my "target".

OK. Right then. These discussions can be confusing if we don't specify "closed to what." So okay.

[drsagacity]

This is an interesting conversation. I know that most are on the side that using the hands to square the clubface is a very bad idea. On the surface, I am too. In fact, I can say that I purchased the video in a drunken stupor several years ago. It really did work for a bit then I found my two way miss. Let me ask a question. Let's say that you start with your grip and you take the club back, during the backswing, you open the clubface by rotating the hands open as far as you can. That is to say that on the backswing, you start opening the clubface gradually to the top. This places you in the toe down position. Now, from the top you go ahead and start closing the clubface, all the way to the end of the swing, where you now have the clubface as closed as possible. Assuming you are swinging in rhythm, wouldn't it make sense that you would be pretty close to square in the middle of the swing (impact)? I am asking because I just played with this very idea moments ago at the range and was hitting the ball beautifully. The way I see it, the key to this being successful is really all about swinging in rhythm. . .and is not reasonable to make this release a few feet before the ball. But, if you can start your release from the top...it makes sense that it would be consistent as long as you keep your forward swing and your backswing the same length and you stay in rhythm. I am no pro, but I am curious to hear some feedback that doesn't resort to name calling. Moreover, if someone is a TGM fan, how does this move differ from the move required by a swinger prior to the horizontal hinging (where the forearms must roll)?

[hacker100]

I find Bonar's method works fine. I would call it creating lag or, flash speed. The key is not to consciously "turn the screw driver" or roll the wrists. They do this on their own, not something you have to do. I open up wide on back swing just like he says and feel like I'm hammering the ball with the heel of my right hand or, if I had a hammer, I'm hammering the spike shown in his dvds with my right hand. Be sure you are hitting down when you do this. The club sizzles through the ball regardless, fairway, rough, off a tee or what ever. The club actually squares itself up through the ball and closes on its own on the follow through. Don't hold onto the hammering sensation, just let the club release on its own. You will feel like it's coming into the ball wide open but it closes just right. The problem with golf instruction is it's like trying to describe how to walk. Or describe what "wet" is.

[MackJL06]

Holy thread revival, Batman