Provisional goes in the water, first ball in play?

[clearwaterms]

I was playing a few weeks back and off the Tee I sliced my ball to the left. I asked my playing partner and we both decided that it was a good possibility the ball was OB, so I hit a provisional and proceeded to hit that one way right into the water. At this point I teed up a 3rd and hit it down the middle, but with a shorter club. During the course of the hole, I found my original shot was still in play. Now we were playing a casual round, so my partner agreed to allow me to play that ball without penalty. However, since I announced a provisional for the shot that was wet, but not the shot down the middle (since it was a follow up to the second shot) could I (following all of the rules) play the first ball without penalty?

[James_Black]

You hit one shot and took a provisional.
You found the original ball.
but you declared your first one lost since you didn't say you were playing a provisional.

so you should have played the third one.

[clearwaterms]

You hit one shot and took a provisional.

Had I declaired the third shot a provisional as well, I could have played the first? is that the rule?

[James_Black]

Had I declaired the third shot a provisional as well, I could have played the first? is that the rule?

exactly, here you go

he player must inform his opponent in match play or his marker or a fellow-competitor in stroke play that he intends to play a provisional ball, and he must play it before he or his partner goes forward to search for the original ball. If he fails to do so and plays another ball, that ball is not a provisional ball and becomes the ball in play under penalty of stroke and distance (Rule 27-1); the original ball is lost. (Order of play from teeing ground – see Rule 10-3)

[kpaulhus]

If you said on the tee box, the second ball is a provisional, and you find the first, you can play the first. Also, if you hit your provisional into the water, why are you re-teeing on the tee box? Water is usually a red stake, which means you can drop where the ball crossed the red stakes into the water. Dont penalize yourself more than you have to.

[Fourputt]

I was playing a few weeks back and off the Tee I sliced my ball to the left. I asked my playing partner and we both decided that it was a good possibility the ball was OB, so I hit a provisional and proceeded to hit that one way right into the water. At this point I teed up a 3rd and hit it down the middle, but with a shorter club. During the course of the hole, I found my original shot was still in play. Now we were playing a casual round, so my partner agreed to allow me to play that ball without penalty. However, since I announced a provisional for the shot that was wet, but not the shot down the middle (since it was a follow up to the second shot) could I (following all of the rules) play the first ball without penalty?

Interesting scenario. Actually since the third ball was in effect played under stroke and distance (Rule 26-1a) for the provisional ball, and since it was not played from a point nearer the hole that where the original ball was expected to be, that ball was still being played as a provisional ball under Rule 27-2 and no further statement from you was necessary. Neither the second nor the the third ball would become the ball in play until you failed to find the original ball in bounds. Since you DID find the original ball in bounds (and hopefully within less than a 5 minute search), it was still the ball in play, and the provisional ball was abandoned. You played correctly.

[saevel25]

My intepretation is that your first ball thought to be OB, was hit out of bounds, you then hit your second in the water. Water is a different type of hazard. Instead of teeing up a third shot you should have looked for the first ball, if found play it, if not found drop a ball were the ball would not be closer to the hole.

Since you teed up for a third shot you basically agreed that the first was lost and that is were you dropped from the water hazard.

So you drop two hit three, drop four hit 5, your will be making your 6th shot from the fairway. But i am not sure if there is now a penalty for teeing up the ball on the third shot.

I would almost say you improved your lie by teeing it up, if i had to make a judgement call on it. So that would be two more strokes, which would mean your laying 7 in the fairway.

[kpaulhus]

^ Thats what I thought.

[rebby]

Look a little closer at

27-2 .

If a ball may be lost outside a water hazard or may be out of bounds, to save time the player may play another ball provisionally in accordance with Rule 27-1. . . . Note: If a provisional ball played under Rule 27-2a might be lost outside a water hazard or out of bounds, the player may play another provisional ball. If another provisional ball is played, it bears the same relationship to the previous provisional ball as the first provisional ball bears to the original ball.

Alright, so here's the scenario played out in accordance with 27-2 as I see it...

• Ball #1 is hit off the tee, possibly OB
• Player announces that he is going to hit a provisional
• Player hits provisional in a water hazard
• Player then re-tees and hits again thus declaring his provisional ball lost in the hazard (see 27-2a and decision 27-2a/2)

This situation can now play out in one of two ways;

1. The original ball is found in bounds, thus the player may play the first ball, hitting 2
2. The original ball is OB, thus stroke and distance penalty, hitting 3 (original provisional) into the water, stroke and distance penalty (due to the re-tee the ball was declared as lost in the hazard), hitting 5 (into the fairway). The player is now hitting 6 from the spot of the 3rd ball in the fairway.

I base this off of my understanding of 27-2a/4 :

27-2a/4 Three Balls Played from Same Spot; Only Second Ball Was Provisional Ball Q. A player, believing his tee shot might be lost or out of bounds, plays a provisional ball. His provisional ball is struck in the same direction as the original ball and, without any announcement, he plays another ball from the tee. This ball comes to rest on the fairway. What is the ruling? A. If the original ball is not lost or out of bounds, the player must continue play with that ball without penalty. If the original ball is lost or out of bounds, the player must continue play with the third ball played from the tee as, when this ball was played without any announcement, it rendered the provisional ball lost, regardless of the provisional ball's location. The player would lie 5 with the third ball played from the tee. In both situations, the third ball bears a relationship only to the previous ball played, i.e., the provisional ball.

Therefore, playing the first ball without penalty was the correct, and legal, play according to the rules (assuming that you found it within 5 minutes of course). I guess my question would be, why did you hit a third shot from the tee rather than just taking a drop outside of the hazard if your first was OB?

Also, saevel25, see the rules on the teeing ground. There is never a penalty for teeing your ball when played from the teeing ground in a situation like this. It's a simple stroke & distance penalty and a re-tee is allowed.

[shades9323]

Look a little closer at

What if he hit the 3rd ball from the fairway before searching/finding the first ball? He said he hit it with a shorter club. He then said "during the course of play" which leads me to believe he hit the ball in the fairway first before finding the first ball.

[Fourputt]

My intepretation is that your first ball thought to be OB, was hit out of bounds, you then hit your second in the water. Water is a different type of hazard. Instead of teeing up a third shot you should have looked for the first ball, if found play it, if not found drop a ball were the ball would not be closer to the hole.

Not so. You are allowed to continue to play your provisional ball until you reach a point at or beyond where the original ball is thought to be. Since the provisional ball was lost in the hazard, he was allowed to play another ball from the tee under Rule 26-1a, but the third ball was still only a continuation of play with the Provisional ball because the tee is certainly farther from the hole than the point where the original ball is thought to be.. Once he found the original ball in bounds, the provisional ball was abandoned and all strokes with it do not count. The provisional ball becomes the ball in play only if the original ball was not found in bounds, or if he played a stroke at the provisional ball from a point nearer to the hole than where the original ball was thought to be.

I would almost say you improved your lie by teeing it up, if i had to make a judgement call on it. So that would be two more strokes, which would mean your laying 7 in the fairway.

If a ball hit from the teeing ground is lost and another ball is substituted under penalty of stroke and distance, you are allowed to tee the second ball if so desired. If the original ball was not played from the teeing ground, then you are required to drop the new ball. Rule 20-5:

20-5. Making Next Stroke from Where Previous Stroke Made When a player elects or is required to make his next stroke from where a previous stroke was made, he must proceed as follows: a. On the Teeing Ground: The ball to be played must be played from within the teeing ground. It may be played from anywhere within the teeing ground and may be teed.

[CarlSpackler]

I agree with 4putt on this. Also, if you discover that your original ball is not OB or lost when you play a provisional for either reason, the provisional is not in play not matter how well you hit it. There is no option to proceed with the provisional. Additionally, you can not play a provisional for a ball in a hazard, only if you think it is lost (not in a hazard) or OB. That is my understanding at least.

[zeg]

Another agreement with fourputt. Once you've put a provisional in play, everything to do with that ball is provisional until you make it (or a ball substituted for it along the way) the ball in play by one of the methods above. It'd be completely nonsensical otherwise.

Also, you are always always always entitled to take a one stroke penalty and play from the previous spot, so there's nothing wrong with playing stroke and distance for a shot in the water. Depending on the course layout, from the tee it may often be to your advantage to do so if the drop is near the tee box---the loss in distance can more than be made up for by a better angle, better lie, and driver or wood instead of an iron from near the water edge. If it entered the hazard well down the course, then of course you're probably better off taking just the drop, but it depends on the situation.

[saevel25]

I don't think so..

For Water Hazards,

If a ball is in a water hazard or if it is known or virtually certain that a ball that has not been found is in a water hazard (whether the ball lies in water or not), the player may under penalty of one stroke: a. Play a ball as nearly as possible at the spot from which the original ball was last played (see Rule 20-5); or b. Drop a ball behind the water hazard, keeping the point at which the original ball last crossed the margin of the water hazard directly between the hole and the spot on which the ball is dropped, with no limit to how far behind the water hazard the ball may be dropped; or c. As additional options available only if the ball last crossed the margin of a lateral water hazard, drop a ball outside the water hazard within two club-lengths of and not nearer the hole than (i) the point where the original ball last crossed the margin of the water hazard or (ii) a point on the opposite margin of the water hazard equidistant from the hole.

Thats the rules for water hazards, no were does it say that you get to tee up another povisional. You didn't loose a ball OB or lost ball after looking for five minutes as in the following rules

At any time, a player may, under penalty of one stroke, play a ball as nearly as possible at the spot from which the original ball was last played (see Rule 20-5), i.e., proceed under penalty of stroke and distance. Except as otherwise provided in the Rules, if a player makes a stroke at a ball from the spot at which the original ball was last played, he is deemed to have proceeded under penalty of stroke and distance. b. Ball Out of Bounds If a ball is out of bounds, the player must play a ball, under penalty of one stroke, as nearly as possible at the spot from which the original ball was last played (see Rule 20-5). c. Ball Not Found Within Five Minutes If a ball is lost as a result of not being found or identified as his by the player within five minutes after the player's Side or his or their caddies have begun to search for it, the player must play a ball, under penalty of one stroke, as nearly as possible at the spot from which the original ball was last played (see Rule 20-5).

So really you hit it OB, your not sure so you hit a provisional following the rules below,

If a ball may be lost outside a water hazard or may be out of bounds, to save time the player may play another ball provisionally in accordance with Rule 27-1. The player must inform his opponent in match play or his marker or a fellow-competitor in stroke play that he intends to play a provisional ball, and he must play it before he or his partner goes forward to search for the original ball. If he fails to do so and plays another ball, that ball is not a provisional ball and becomes the ball in play under penalty of stroke and distance (Rule 27-1); the original ball is lost.

If you look at the rules you hit a provisional (correct thing to do) you hit a second shot, it went into a water hazard, that ball is still in play, it is not out of play. At that point you should have looked for your first ball or go by the water hazard rules and dropped a ball closest to the point it entered the water hazard. Since you dropped your third, that ball is now in play.

[rebby]

I agree with 4putt on this. Also, if you discover that your original ball is not OB or lost when you play a provisional for either reason, the provisional is not in play not matter how well you hit it. There is no option to proceed with the provisional. Additionally, you can not play a provisional for a ball in a hazard, only if you think it is lost (not in a hazard) or OB. That is my understanding at least.

Even if you find the first ball, you can still play the provisional. Just declair the first ball as unplayable and proceed under

rule 28/a .

[CarlSpackler]

Even if you find the first ball, you can still play the provisional. Just declair the first ball as unplayable and proceed under

If the original ball is neither lost nor out of bounds, the player must abandon the provisional ball and continue playing the original ball. If he makes any further strokes at the provisional ball, he is playing a wrong ball and the provisions of Rule 15-3 apply.

[alf174]

Even if you find the first ball, you can still play the provisional. Just declair the first ball as unplayable and proceed under

Way wrong here. No where in 28/a does it mention you're allowed to continue with a provisional. Your only options are drops near where the ball was declared unplayable.

[rebby]

If the original ball is neither lost nor out of bounds, the player must abandon the provisional ball and continue playing the original ball. If he makes any further strokes at the provisional ball, he is playing a wrong ball and the provisions of Rule 15-3 apply.

Yep, my bad. Addressed here ->

27-2/1 Provisional Ball Serving as Ball in Play If Original Ball Unplayable or in Water Hazard Q. May a player announce that a second ball he is going to play is both (a) a provisional ball in case the original ball is lost outside a water hazard or out of bounds and (b) the ball in play in case the original ball is unplayable or in a water hazard? A. No.