Swing vs. Handicap

[Shanks A Million]

This has caused some discussion:

FWIW, here's one thing that basically directly correlates (to an incredibly good R value): low point of the swing and handicap.

How about this? I'm pretty sure iacas is right, so I want to play a little game to prove it.

I would be willing to bet that if we put up videos of our swings, and I'll bet they would almost universally be fairly accurate to that assessment. I would be willing to bet that our swings generally coincide with our handicaps. For example, I know my swing bottoms out a little ahead of the ball, maybe a few inches or so at best. I flip more than I should, that's for sure. I have a chicken wing, which is seriously bugging me. I have all the hallmarks that say "high single digit." My swing could probably be stretched from a 5 to a 15 handicap or so, depending on age and physical condition. Now, (and this will be fun...) When I was a, say, a 20 handicap? What did my positions look like? I happened to have kept a meticulous record of my swings dating back for several years: Now, do you see the difference? Instructors know what to look for, and they can usually guess within a few strokes of someone's handicap. Now, some of you may ask well, what about short game, course management, etc? Well, those don't mean much if you can't even get the ball to the green, or have no choice but a pitch out. Even so, the confidence of a good swing means a lot to course management. Short game is also highly dependent on a good swing. If you flip in the full swing, odds are you flip on the shorter ones. For these reasons, I'm led to believe that the single, most important thing in all of golf is a solid move through impact. I don't believe there is a tour pro without it, and a high handicap with it. So, lets see if this holds true. Lets see if we have any 20 handicaps with fundamentally sound swings, or vice versa. The short game, after all, is as much about the fundamentals of the swing as anything, so using that as an excuse is fairly passè. Post your swing, and let's see.

[joeyl5522]

A couple of comments.......your hips slide (move to the right in your backswing) which causes your spine to lean left. This is a very difficult move to recover from! I would suggest you build strength in the outer parts of your hips to prevent this. Also you're right eye dominant, which means ball position is crucial. Have your right eye focused on the back of the ball. With short irons this may mean moving the ball back in your stance. Hope this helps, please give feedback.

[James_Black]

A couple of comments.......your hips slide (move to the right in your backswing) which causes your spine to lean left. This is a very difficult move to recover from! I would suggest you build strength in the outer parts of your hips to prevent this. Also you're right eye dominant, which means ball position is crucial. Have your right eye focused on the back of the ball. With short irons this may mean moving the ball back in your stance. Hope this helps, please give feedback.

how do you know he's right eye dominant? because he's right handed? it doesn't work that way.

[joeyl5522]

Because of where the club is bottoming out. The club will bottom out, dependent upon which dominant eye you are. If yor're left eye more towards your front foot, if right eye more towards your back foot.

[Leftygolfer]

Because of where the club is bottoming out. The club will bottom out, dependent upon which dominant eye you are. If yor're left eye more towards your front foot, if right eye more towards your back foot.

This is hog wash. I'm left handed right eye dominant (I know this for a fact due to having issues shooting guns and bows and can't wink my right eye and can't hit anything without a patch or shooting right handed (which is how I shoot now)). I also have issues not taking a divot and can't play short irons up in the stance if I want to strike down on it. It has nothing to do with eye dominance but rather my wieght doesn't shift toward the target soon enough so the low point is right at the ball, maybe a smidge in front, hence the 10 HC. I agree with Shanks and Erik regarding this. You can really tell if someone can play just by where they hit the ground. If it is in the same place after the ball, they are going to be a decent striker. Also, another thing about hitting the ball better and short game: If your misses are better you have a better short game (illusion b/c they have easier shots) and get up and in more. A horrid iron shot (I know too much about it) leaves you in places even the pros only get up and in 50% of the time where if you strike it consistantly and miss with lets say a push, it will be a easy chip or pitch pin high and your chances go up dramatically.

[bplewis24]

Here is mine:







Red line=me.

Green line=tour pro.

Brandon

[Shanks A Million]

how do you know he's right eye dominant? because he's right handed? it doesn't work that way.

I'm actually perfectly intermediately dominant. I'm also equal brained. It's rare, but it does happen.

Here is mine:

Ah, I'm glad to see you got my advice. It's really a good swing, you just need to fix that and boom, you're on your way. Basically, people try to release the clubhead at the ball, but that's not what happens. You release the club (let it cross the hands)

after the ball. If you were trying to hit a nail through a board in one shot, you wouldn't swing at the nail, you'd swing through the whole board. Same deal. Club snaps well after the ball.

[JML22]

your camera setup is off isnt it?

[bplewis24]

your camera setup is off isnt it?

For my swing? You mean the camera is not perfectly squared to my swing? I dunno, it looks close enough to me.

Brandon

[joeyl5522]

This is good stuff. When people are right or left eye dominant, that means- thats what part of their face the see out of. Hand eye cordination is a big part of the game. I guaruntee you, if you're right eye, the club will bottom out further back in your stance. Not that this is a cure all, but it plays a huge role.

[Leftygolfer]

This is good stuff. When people are right or left eye dominant, that means- thats what part of their face the see out of. Hand eye cordination is a big part of the game. I guaruntee you, if you're right eye, the club will bottom out further back in your stance. Not that this is a cure all, but it plays a huge role.

Still funny and not accurate. Where the bottom of the swing occurs has nothing to do with eye dominance. It has to do with what kind of move you have, the sequence, and when the wrist uncock in the swing. If I went to see a pro and he asked what eye was dominant and then made a determination of ball position based on that, I'd leave.

[Shanks A Million]

Still funny and not accurate. Where the bottom of the swing occurs has nothing to do with eye dominance. It has to do with what kind of move you have, the sequence, and when the wrist uncock in the swing. If I went to see a pro and he asked what eye was dominant and then made a determination of ball position based on that, I'd leave.

Yeah, I'm not going to touch that one though.

[joeyl5522]

It seems we agree to disagree :) Here is what I can tell you. I'm left eye dominant, if i play the ball position up, the angle of attack is shallow with great contact. If I play it back the angle of attack is steep and I tend to hit shots fat. Jack Nicklaus was left eye and he never played the call back in his stance. Lee Trevino was Right eye and he always played it back. Next time you go hit balls play with the ball position and see where contact is the most solid.

[saevel25]

Well it might affect the bottoming out of the swing, meaning by maybe an inch or two, probably the distance between your eyes. But it is more driven by the centers of your upperbody and lower body, because these form the angles with your arms and the club which have more predominant determination of were the club bottoms out.

For example, i am right eye dominant. I know because i had to take a terrain anaylsis class in college and used stereoscopic (spelling) pictures with special glasses to make them look 3D. Fun stuff, but the thing is you must learn how to get your left eye to look at the left picture and your right to look at the right picture because stereoscopic are pictures that are slightly off set with each other. The issue i had was i am so right eye dominant that i had a hard time focusing my left eye. I had to actually cross eye on purpose and slowly bring them into focus to trick my right eye. But back to point, my typical divot if i am swinging well is probably 1-2 inches infront of the ball. I have to make an effort to get close to 4 inches. But 1-2 inches is pretty good, i think alot of people can play with 1-2 inches infront of the ball..

[brgolf]

Brandon

Until your swing said hello to the ball I was wondering how you were a 13.4 HC. A lot of good positions I felt.

[$2 Nassau]

Good thread, I'll try to get a pic of my swing up soon. Maybe a vid. I haven't looked at my swing in 2 years. It's still chicken wingy I'm sure, but I can feel that's getting better. I really want to see if on film to see if my assumptions are correct. 2 years ago I was a 15 and was determined to get into a better impact position. It has not been easy to say the least. I think this year I'm starting to break through a little, the ah-ha moment came from realizing that you can't just simply push your arms and hands forward to manufacture a better impact position, but rather it's a results of everything else - proper set up, balance, weight shift, proper finish, etc.

[Tomboys]

Here is mine:

Really nice swing overall. Now, please take anything I say with a grain of salt (a big one at that) since I'm just a weekend hack. That being said, this is what I noticed:

1). You set up really low and you rise up through your shot. In fact, at impact, I saw that you have a tendency to be on your toes even on your left foot. 2). You have nice hip rotation, but there seems to be no (or very little) hip slide to get your weight to your front foot (SAM--can you check this?). If this is the case, then too much of your weight may be staying back. This could also be the reason why you have to "lift" at impact. If you didn't lift, the club would bottom out behind the ball. Also, you position your ball almost in the middle of your stance even though you have a wood in your hand. So, you may be compensating with ball position ensure you don't hit the shot fat.

[bplewis24]

Brandon

Thanks... and therein lies the point of this thread, right? Even with a lot of good positions, you can take one look at my swing and see where the handicap correlation manifests itself. After doing a bit of reading and listening to feedback, I think I can see it myself now. Now it's about working on it and seeing how it affects my handicap going forward.

Brandon