Working with a Fade

[Finmaster]

Okay, so, when I use a driver off the tee, I hit a pretty consistent fade. On a standard tee shot, I just aim down the left side of the fairway and usually hit the ball 200-220 in the center and sometimes left side of the fairway. It's actually quite pleasant on dogleg holes going left to right and no problem on straight holes, but I have a hard time with holes that go from right to left. I was wondering if there's any tips to reverse this to hit the ball straight and possibly draw it a little?

I just need something to work with on right to left holes, as I'm currently comfortable with my slight left to right ball flight and it's consistency on the other ones.

Thanks

[shortstop20]

Setup normally, now close stance while leaving clubhead pointing at the target line, take the club away on that stance line. Hit some shots and see how much they draw, if any.

Experiment with a closed stance and swing along that stance line until you find the right amount that you need to close it in order to hit the draw.

[Finmaster]

I just tried a few shots in my back yard doing this. This seemed to straighten me out, thanks! Now I'll have to go to range today and repeat this shot. :D

[shortstop20]

No problem, this is the preferred method for many as it requires no manipulation.

Easy as can be, setup normal, alter foot stance, swing along stance line!

[zeg]

  shortstop20 said:

Setup normally, now close stance while leaving clubhead pointing at the target line, take the club away on that stance line. Hit some shots and see how much they draw, if any.

Be prepared for a big explosion in the thread --- it's been shown pretty clearly that the standard advice of aiming the clubface on the target line will lead to the ball starting along the target line if you actually return to that alignment at impact. This will lead to a straight-draw that starts along the target line, then draws left of it, rather than a push-draw that ends up at the target. See the threads about ball flight laws.

However, you said the magic word, "experiment." IMO, while it's important to understand how the club face and swing path actually work to generate the various ball flights, the old advice has been around for so long that there's gotta be something to it. Anyone who uses it must be subconsciously not returning their ball to the address position, so there's some manipulation going on. The advice at least gets the general idea of having the face closed to the swing path, so by experiment you can probably find the combination that gets you the ball flight you want. For me, I have trouble really committing to the swing path defined by my feet when I have a closed (to the path) club face. Getting the ball position right, etc, is difficult, especially on the range when the stall markers all point in a direction that's not quite where you want to align. I find it helps to first set up for a straight shot in the direction I want to put the swing plane, then after setting up, rotate the club face closed a bit (to the path) and then focus on the ball and swing path, trying to ignore the look of the club face. Otherwise I get a nasty heel shank.

[senorchipotle]

there are ball flight laws, and then there's actual physical golf. you don't need to know ball flight laws to play good golf. pick a spot about 5-10 yards left of your target to aim at. line up to that target with your clubface a little closed then hit it. if its too far right close the face a bit more, if it's too far left then open it. forget all the technical crap cause it will just screw you up. perfect example: i bet steve elkington forgot more about the golf swing than tiger woods will ever know. but steve doesn't have one tenth of the accomplishments that tiger has. it's not what you know, it's knowing how to use what you've got.

[zeg]

  senorchipotle said:

there are ball flight laws, and then there's actual physical golf. you don't need to know ball flight laws to play good golf. pick a spot about 5-10 yards left of your target to aim at. line up to that target with your clubface a little closed then hit it. if its too far right close the face a bit more, if it's too far left then open it. forget all the technical crap cause it will just screw you up. perfect example: i bet steve elkington forgot more about the golf swing than tiger woods will ever know. but steve doesn't have one tenth of the accomplishments that tiger has. it's not what you know, it's knowing how to use what you've got.

You don't need to know the physics to hit the ball, but if you're having problems, it's important to know what to do to fix it. If you're using the wrong laws to diagnose ballflight problems, you can mislead yourself into the wrong correction. That's why I say there's nothing wrong with using the old rules for setup and then experimenting, but you should at least be aware of what's going on IMO.

[Slammin' Sam]

At the risk of oversimplifying it, Sam Snead was once asked what to do for a fade or slice. His response? Aim left.

[shortstop20]

  zeg said:

Be prepared for a big explosion in the thread --- it's been shown pretty clearly that the standard advice of aiming the clubface on the target line will lead to the ball starting along the target line if you actually return to that alignment at impact. This will lead to a straight-draw that starts along the target line, then draws left of it, rather than a push-draw that ends up at the target. See the threads about ball flight laws.

You're right, I should have mentioned to aim clubface right of target line, but left of stance line. I think the reason that the old advice of aim the clubhead at the target and swing out to the right has worked for people is that when they swing out to the right, they are leaving the clubface open to the target line, but closed to the swing path, without even realizing it.

[saevel25]

Aim left of were you want to ball to end ;b

[senorchipotle]

  shortstop20 said:

You're right, I should have mentioned to aim clubface right of target line, but left of stance line. I think the reason that the old advice of aim the clubhead at the target and swing out to the right has worked for people is that when they swing out to the right, they are leaving the clubface open to the target line, but closed to the swing path, without even realizing it.

i'm willing to bet you know how to throw a curveball, right? do you know the slightest bit about pitching mechanics? i'm assuming you don't. but you still know how to grip the ball and how it feels to throw such a pitch.

[zeg]

  senorchipotle said:

i'm willing to bet you know how to throw a curveball, right? do you know the slightest bit about pitching mechanics? i'm assuming you don't. but you still know how to grip the ball and how it feels to throw such a pitch.

What's your point? Yes, it's true, people can do things they don't understand. Are you suggesting it's somehow better not to know the mechanics, that it's better to learn incorrect but possibly workable mechanics, or something else?

[senorchipotle]

  zeg said:

What's your point? Yes, it's true, people can do things they don't understand. Are you suggesting it's somehow better not to know the mechanics, that it's better to learn incorrect but possibly workable mechanics, or something else?

nobody before recently knew precise ball flight laws, yet they still managed to play great golf. that is my point. knowing mechanics and where the club should be is different from getting the club in that position. i think one should learn how to properly swing a club and hit the ball straight before bothering themselves with ball flight laws when they are not yet able to produce an iron shot that goes in the general direction in which they want it to 7 out of 10 times. if one does not know how it feels to hit the ball straight, then what point is there in trying to understand how to work the ball?

[shortstop20]

  senorchipotle said:

i'm willing to bet you know how to throw a curveball, right? do you know the slightest bit about pitching mechanics? i'm assuming you don't. but you still know how to grip the ball and how it feels to throw such a pitch.

You might not want to assume such things of a person with a username that is directly related to baseball. Just saying.

But I get your point, and you make a good one.

[acegolfer]

This thread has gone wild.

To get back to OP's question, I think it's helpful to know how to hit both ways. You need to experiment using the advices given above.

Having said that, I don't think you should hit draws. Hitting an intentional draw for a natural fader is harder than the other way around. You will soon learn what "double cross" means.

How much left to right is your "consistent fade?" If it's not more than 5 yards, you are much more better off not hitting a draw at all (see KJ Choi). Even for dogleg left holes, it's only 10 yard difference, which is less than a club difference.

If you fade more than 10 yards, then reduce it to 5 yards instead of trying to learn how to hit draws.

What I'm trying to say is if you have a consistent shot, why change? But if you are inconsistent with your fade, then it's a different story.

[iacas]

  senorchipotle said:

nobody before recently knew precise ball flight laws, yet they still managed to play great golf. that is my point. knowing mechanics and where the club should be is different from getting the club in that position. i think one should learn how to properly swing a club and hit the ball straight before bothering themselves with ball flight laws when they are not yet able to produce an iron shot that goes in the general direction in which they want it to 7 out of 10 times. if one does not know how it feels to hit the ball straight, then what point is there in trying to understand how to work the ball?

I disagree and think it's almost like putting the cart before the horse.

Understanding the ball flight laws can HELP someone to figure out WHAT to do to improve their swing. That's the point. If you're hitting pull-slices you know that not only is your clubface closed (a little) but that your path is terrible. If you hit the ball straight and then it hooks like crazy your face is okay but the path is going out too much. Ball flight laws are not something you need to be good to use, they're something you use to improve.

[zeg]

Also, to even experiment effectively, you've got to have *some* idea what you're trying to accomplish. Did you learn to throw a curve ball by throwing every possible way until one happened to curve? More likely someone told you the basic principle, showed you how to hold it, and then you started practicing to get the spin just right.

I don't really shape shots (maybe occasionally on the range just for amusement, but it's ugly), but I find myself making use of the laws just to figure out what's happening when my regular shots go awry. It's very helpful to know whether my shot shape is a sign of an open face, closed face, or (usually) an out-to-in path. Sometimes you can tell from other signs like a direction of a divot, but the ball flight doesn't lie and it's there on every shot (except the worm-burners!!).

[senorchipotle]

  zeg said:

Also, to even experiment effectively, you've got to have *some* idea what you're trying to accomplish. Did you learn to throw a curve ball by throwing every possible way until one happened to curve? More likely someone told you the basic principle, showed you how to hold it, and then you started practicing to get the spin just right.

touché....