Backswing Coil

[Open-Faced Club Sandwedge]

I have a question about the way I should be coiling (rotating) in my backswing.

I used to have a consistent slice. I took a lesson, and the instructor pointed out that my biggest problem was that my shoulders were open at impact, meaning my left shoulder was pulling my left arm, which was pulling the club out-to-in. This makes perfect sense.

He tried to teach me to set up with my shoulders more closed, to fix the problem of them being open at impact. This didn't work for me very well. I was pulling my right shoulder back away from the ball to a really uncomfortable degree, and during the swing things would still find their way into the wrong position, and I would still get that open-shoulder slice much of the time.

I recently found that what really helps, much more consistently than trying to change my setup position, was to change my top-of-the-backswing position, to make sure my shoulders were turned way back, so that as I turned forward during the swing they wouldn't end up so open at impact.

In trying to do this, I discovered that my hips seem to "need" to be open at impact, and the way to get my shoulders right is to make sure I have a big difference in how far my hips "coil", and how far my shoulders "coil". I found that my best results happen when I coil my shoulders without coiling my hips. Then my hips can open way up during the downswing, without opening my shoulders.

My question: is this recommended practice? I'm actually trying to restrict my hips during the backswing; trying to get them to stay parallel to the target while my shoulders do all the turning. Is that wrong? Does anyone else try to do this?

-Andrew

[DavidFehertysBike]

I wouldn't try to restrict anything, that can only lead to tightness. Take an old club, go out to a field or something and stick a old shaft or stick into the ground 50 yards away. Literally throw the club at the target. The motion you get from doing that properly is the general idea. If you are doing what you usually do, the club should fly high and left. If you do it right, it should fly below your head and at the target. Its a neat little drill i do when i find myself coming over the top alot.

[Open-Faced Club Sandwedge]

I wouldn't try to restrict anything, that can only lead to tightness. Take an old club, go out to a field or something and stick a old shaft or stick into the ground 50 yards away. Literally throw the club at the target. The motion you get from doing that properly is the general idea. If you are doing what you usually do, the club should fly high and left. If you do it right, it should fly below your head and at the target. Its a neat little drill i do when i find myself coming over the top alot.

Can you explain what kind of throwing motion you're talking about? Do you mean taking a golf swing and letting the club fly?

-Andrew

[DavidFehertysBike]

Can you explain what kind of throwing motion you're talking about? Do you mean taking a golf swing and letting the club fly?

Yeah. Line up like youre going to take a normal shot. Take a backswing, then let it fly.

[Open-Faced Club Sandwedge]

Okay, I guess I could try that at some point.

But back to the original question (still fishing for more feedback on this one), is it a bad idea for me to try to force extra "coil" between my hips and shoulders? I feel like I used to be turning my hips and shoulders away from the target together, and then when my hips cleared my shoulders would be open as well, since they stayed with my hips. Am I right to try to avoid that by holding the hips still in the backswing, ensuring my shoulders would be rotationally "behind" my hips?

-Andrew

[Stretch]

Am I right to try to avoid that by holding the hips still in the backswing, ensuring my shoulders would be rotationally "behind" my hips?

No. You need to make a proper hip turn to make a proper shoulder turn. Your actual hip problem is most likely on the downswing, where they don't go forward (enough) before they spin open. That's what has you cutting across the ball, if I had to guess.

[Open-Faced Club Sandwedge]

No. You need to make a proper hip turn to make a proper shoulder turn. Your actual hip problem is most likely on the downswing, where they don't go forward (enough) before they spin open. That's what has you cutting across the ball, if I had to guess.

So you're saying the right way to deal with hips vs. shoulders is to allow the hips to turn in order to allow a comfortable unhindered shoulder turn, but to use a lateral shift forward as a way to prevent the hips from opening too drastically on the downswing, yes?

Can you explain the effect of the lateral shift on the hips opening up in more detail? I'm not sure I'm getting the cause-and-effect relationship between the lateral movement and the extent of the rotational movement. -Andrew

[Zeph]

Do you by any chance have a camera you can use to record your swing? Without it, we are really just throwing out things, which can be completely wrong for your swing.

Many come to impact with slightly open shoulders. Instead of looking at the final part of your swing, I'd recommend looking at the earlier parts. Take-away and position at the top. That is where you lay the foundation for the swing plane.

Don't try restricting hip turn. Hips should turn somewhere around 30-45º and the shoulders around 90º. I don't like the coil idea when thinking about this. It can make people restrict the hip turn and spin out of it. The downswing is a chain of motions, not a sprung coil being unwound. Like a fishing rod. The elbow leads the arm, the arm leads the hands, the hands lead the bottom of the rod, the bottom of the rod leads the tip of the rod and the tip of the rod leads the lure. A coil would be like pulling the rod back so it is flexed, and then releasing it, that won't get the lure anywhere.

The hips should be a bit open at impact, but for most not because of conciously trying to spin and rotate them. Push them forward as far they go, the body extend and the hips rotate.
Look up the "Slide the hips" thread somewhere in this forum section on that topic.

[Stretch]

I don't think it's generally a case of the hips opening too much -- they should open fully -- as it is a case of them opening too early. As far as the biomechanics go, have a read through this thread. Others here can explain it far better than I can.

http://thesandtrap.com/forum/threads...IDE-Your-Hips?

[Open-Faced Club Sandwedge]

So, this guy seems to disagree with the prevailing notion on here, mentioning specifically that the lower body should "resist" turning with the upper body on the backswing:
http://www.thegolfchannel.com/golf-v...rer=vgpresults

What say the knowledgeable folks of the forum in response?

-Andrew

[Open-Faced Club Sandwedge]

Hey, and Hank Haney says it too:
(skip ahead to 1:03 for comments on the backswing coil)

I don't want to sound argumentative, and I think that the forward hip slide is definitely something that might improve my swing, but I just came across some seemingly authoritative sources backing up what my intuition told me about the lower body's role in the backswing, and I wonder if that changes anyone else's mind regarding that issue.

-Andrew

[DavidFehertysBike]

So, this guy seems to disagree with the prevailing notion on here, mentioning specifically that the lower body should "resist" turning with the upper body on the backswing:

Thats fine if you have the flexibility to pull a torque move like that off. But if you have moderate to poor flexibility, its better to open your hips so you can make a full shoulder turn.

[iacas]

Even Jim McLean who came up with the idea of the X Factor has distanced himself from that. He won't even talk about it anymore.

Bubba Watson and John Daly turn their hips plenty.



Tiger. Phil. Good amount of hip rotation in both of them, too.

[Open-Faced Club Sandwedge]

Okay, thanks for bearing with me guys.

I found another video from a (seemingly) reputable instructor on the topic, and it seems to put it all in perspective in a way that reconciles the "X" or "coil" idea with what you guys have been advising me:


He says that if you have the flexibility to turn the shoulders fully and correctly without turning the hips much, then that's great, but most people physically can't do it, and the larger hip turn in the backswing is a necessity. This seems logical, and fits with what I'm hearing here.

I'm hoping to get to the range today to play around with it, but I wouldn't rate my flexibility to be above average (or at least not by much), so I'm guessing I'll find that I can't afford to restrict the hip turn much. I'm looking forward to putting what I've read about the hip slide into my swing, to see if I can create the right hip/shoulder relationship during the downswing that way.

-Andrew