PGA Fiasco

[albatross]

Control the crowd? Impossible. Watch any of the British Opens that Nicklaus or Watson played in. The crowds are mobs. You can't control a mob mentality without tear gas or rubber bullets... I'm just sayin'...

I'm not talking just about mobs. I'm talking about individuals as well. Girls building sand castles in bunkers for instance. I've worked and attended many tournaments including 9 majors and I've never seen anything like what happened there this week.

[Shanks A Million]

I think Kaymer's reaction had a lot to do with the fact he knew his win would be marred by this. Secondly, he's a shy, quiet guy by nature, nothing real big there. But if it makes anyone feel any better, I'm not really a big DJ fan or anything, but I thought it was quite sad. Still, what happened happened, and there's really no way to quantify it.

In the end, Johnson will come back. He's proven himself to be a perennial contender. He'll snag at least one, maybe two majors. Look how long it took for guys like Pavin, Love, Mickelson, and others to win their first major.

[Jay-Bird]

I'm not talking just about mobs. I'm talking about individuals as well. Girls building sand castles in bunkers for instance. I've worked and attended many tournaments including 9 majors and I've never seen anything like what happened there this week.

Good point.

[gmanuel25]

The main point is that they should've told DJ IMMEDIATELY that there

I don't think a player can change his strategy because he

MAY have committed a rules infraction. What if it's later determined that no infraction occurred and the player makes a bigger number trying to hole out because he is under the assumption that he is playing under "false" circumstances. I believe there was a situation at the FBR with Kenny Perry last year and it was later determined that he didn't commit an infraction. To call the penalty right away would require temporalily halting play and going 'under the hood' NFL style, which might wear on the patience of a player(s) playing under the pressure of a major championship.

[Deryck Griffith]

I hate to jump into this shit storm but...

Bingo...

My thing is, Dustin in that moment was under a lot of pressure and I can see how "being in that moment" could caused an overlooking mistake like this; however, his caddie on the other hand should've been on the ball and not allowed such a mistake to be made. If I was Dustin's caddie, you better believe I would've had a full understanding of the rules and would've made sure he understood that "we," him are standing in a bunker.

[pcmancini]

If the World's Most Interesting Man (aka the Dos Equis guy)was playing that shot, the bunker would have called a penalty on itself.

[ctyankee]

I don't always drink beer, but when I do, I prefer Sol beer.

[ctyankee]

I think Kaymer's reaction had a lot to do with the fact he knew his win would be marred by this. Secondly, he's a shy, quiet guy by nature, nothing real big there. But if it makes anyone feel any better, I'm not really a big DJ fan or anything, but I thought it was quite sad. Still, what happened happened, and there's really no way to quantify it.

I doubt by that time Kaymer was considering Dustin Johnson at all. If anything, he might have had a thought for the guy he just beat. That's all. Personally, I don't want a big demonstration when someone wins on a two foot putt. Holing from off the green yes, two foot putt no. I also don't like the way tennis players flop to the ground after winning a title while the loser has to watch that crap. YMMV.

[BonoVox]

Here's the question I have - where was DJ's ball, exactly, in the bunker. From the pictures posted above and having watched the replay several times, the area that is marked with a circle in the pictures above is not where his ball was. From what I can tell, here is my interpretation:

I actually saw and was thinking the same thing after watching the replay a bunch.

What a disappointing finish to a day that was building momentum all day.

[TheGeekGolfer]

To call the penalty right away would require temporalily halting play and going 'under the hood' NFL style, which might wear on the patience of a player(s) playing under the pressure of a major championship.

Is it better to call the penalty AFTER the play is over and deny the player the opportunity to (in this case) tie? If they can't make the call at the time or before he hits his next shot, then the call is null and void, simple as that.

Oh...and to the stupid people that say after he first grounded his club and stepped back that he 'looked like he did something wrong', he didn't...he clearly was looking at the shadows behind his ball and was trying to let people to move and/or stand still so he could focus on his shot.

[BonoVox]

I'm not talking just about mobs. I'm talking about individuals as well. Girls building sand castles in bunkers for instance. I've worked and attended many tournaments including 9 majors and I've never seen anything like what happened there this week.

It was really an out of control situation. Even earlier when Tiger hit up in that general area (though not as far offline and further back) He was hitting a 3 wood I believe. People were so close to his line I actually closed my eyes when he swung. Ball above his feet 3 wood off the scruff. He could have easily pushed that just a bit right and killed someone.

The PGA officials should have 100 marshalls on Sunday on 18 just to clear out crowds when a player ends up among them. In both Tiger's situation and expecially DJ's situation they should have cleared everybody out big time. There was places for people to spill on to even if it was the fairway. The PGA lost control and DJ broke the rules. Two facts.

[Zeph]

People celebrate differently, some are exuberant like Tiger, others are more quiet like Kaymer. He is a very good player, so he definitely deserves being a major winner. He's a shy and quiet guy, always has been, so it's no surprise he didn't jump into the water hazard on 18 (or should that one be called waste bunker too?).

You can't please them all. Some are disgusted by someone doing a fist pump, others would prefer if everyone did it.

The PGA lost control and DJ broke the rules. Two facts.

How did they lose control? If DJ had wanted to, he could've stood still until all of them cleared the way, but he chose not to. This situation was no different than any other big tournament where a player hits into a big crowd.

[TheGeekGolfer]

I actually saw and was thinking the same thing after watching the replay a bunch.

I agree with this also (see pic above), after seeing it again. Where does the bunker begin / end? They shoud've gone to the replay, gone out to the course and stuck a tee in the ground at the exact spot he hit from. Then looked at the bunker (without any spectators around) and made a ruling. The fact that the PGA relies on the replay and didn't even go out and actually look at the exact spot in question to make their ruling is even more stupid (stupider?). There was already a delay, a few more minutes going out on the course would make more sense, just to make sure it's the correct decision.

[gmanuel25]

Is it better to call the penalty AFTER the play is over and deny the player the opportunity to (in this case) tie? If they can't make the call at the time or before he hits his next shot, then the call is null and void, simple as that.

My point is ..... there's no easy solution! They offered DJ a chance to go out to the CBS trailer to analyze it for himself. I'm just saying, if you're going to call a penalty on someone right there on the course on the 72nd hole of a major championship, you better be able to allow the player to see it for himself (or herself).

I think the only two people that are glad this situation happened are Cory Pavin and Jim Gray!

[BonoVox]

I agree with this also (see pic above), after seeing it again. Where does the bunker begin / end? They shoud've gone to the replay, gone out to the course and stuck a tee in the ground at the exact spot he hit from. Then looked at the bunker (without any spectators around) and made a ruling. The fact that the PGA relies on the replay and didn't even go out and actually look at the exact spot in question to make their ruling is even more stupid (stupider?). There was already a delay, a few more minutes going out on the course would make more sense, just to make sure it's the correct decision.

At Harbor Town they did just that. Once they determined the exact twig that was hit they went out and physically confirmed it.

Heck it's only the PGA Championship on the line. People where slammed in that bunker all day. I am sure a lot of them pushed down the hill or exited it on that very spot pulling/kicking/dragging sand with them as there was zero lip there. Anyway IMHO those need to be roped to keep spectators out or they need to be waste bunkers. The mistake by the PGA was made before the tournament began. That and losing control.

[zeg]

Erik, at least read my posts before you respond to them. I said over and over that Dustin should have been penalized. Go back and read them. Don't respond by saying I thought he shouldn't be penalized when I said the opposite 4 times. I said he should clearly have been penalized and that he should have read the rule sheet.

David Ferhety said he couldnt tell if it were a bunker, or a area that spectators had been standing on all week. He said the absence of any lips made him wonder because the course has such a sandy base.

1. Would they have called this on Tiger or Phil? There are enough people saying "definitely a bunker" and enough people saying "no way I thought that was a bunker" to make it inconclusive enough for the rules official to get away with letting it go. I wonder if they'd have the balls.

Yes. I don't see any reason to ask this question and think otherwise. As was said above, I don't think a more experienced golfer with a more experienced caddy would have made this mistake.

2. I will never understand litterbugs, anywhere. Even if you're in a rundown part of town, why litter?

Crowds tend to produce litter. Some I'm sure is morons who don't care, but sometimes it is accidental. When you're in a large crowd, especially one that's moving, if you drop something it may not be safe/practical to pick it up. The litter that follows crowds is not all due to jerks just throwing their crap down, that's only some of it.

The bigger issue is, if the rules official thought there was an issue as he was making his way up to his ball to hit his '3rd' shot, then they should've said something RIGHT AWAY!

That might be nice, but that's not the way it works. Golf is fundamentally a self-policed game. It was DJ's responsibility to call that penalty on himself, but he didn't (by honest mistake). Unfortunately for him, someone (a few tens of thousands probably) did notice and notified the officials. They were kind to discuss it with him before he'd signed his card, since obviously no one wants a DQ due to something like that. But it takes time for someone to put together that first of all, he was in a bunker, second of all, he grounded his club, third of all he didn't already give himself the penalty, etc. That it took them a short time to notify him that something was amiss is not an issue at all.

I have a lot of sympathy for DJ. I can completely understand how this would happen and I can imagine how awful it would feel. But in the end it's his responsibility to be aware of the course, and there's no one else to blame for that. Flap all you want about how there shouldn't be spectators in the bunkers, but that's just not a complaint that's compatible with reality. If you hit a miserable shot that is into the area where spectators are trampling things down and congregating, you're going to pay a price for that. It might be a lie that's underneath a mat of trampled grass. Heck, DJ even got a good lie, all he needed to do was give a moment's thought to the fact that he was sitting on sand. Furthermore, after this incident it's awfully tempting to say that the bunkers should be played as waste areas, but even that is no panacea. That just raises the question of whether a particular piece of sandy turf is to be treated as a bunker or not. Here the rule was crystal clear. If you're on sand, and if your next shot could be worth a million bucks, take a moment to investigate whether you're in a bunker. It's really not complicated.

[TheGeekGolfer]

That might be nice, but that's not the way it works. Golf is fundamentally a self-policed game. It was DJ's responsibility to call that penalty on himself, but he didn't (by honest mistake). Unfortunately for him, someone (a few tens of thousands probably) did notice and notified the officials. They were kind to discuss it with him before he'd signed his card, since obviously no one wants a DQ due to something like that. But it takes time for someone to put together that first of all, he was in a bunker, second of all, he grounded his club, third of all he didn't already give himself the penalty, etc. That it took them a short time to notify him that something was amiss is not an issue at all.

That's the point...it should NOT work that way, it's unfair to the player in the situation to call a penalty AFTER the fact when nothing can be done to make up for the added strokes. Saying 'That might be nice, but that's not the way it works." is a cop-out.

[Plox]

Not only a cop-out, but lazy acceptance of rules without thinking to challenge and subsequuently change them. This ranks up there with the ridiculous 'ball moving at adress' nonsense. Let's use some common sense and quit the blind acceptance of tradition.