So... how long before EVERYONE starts Stacking and Tilting?

[adamgoodman]

Regarding the OP...

I don't think there were never be a time where everyone uses the Stack and Tilt. The Stack and Tilt philosophies that I have read reiterate that the S&T; pattern simply is not for everyone.

[DavidFehertysBike]

Oh just hit the damn ball and sort out the rest later...lol.

[deronsizemore]

Regarding the OP...

The more you understand Stack and Tilt, the more you realize that majority of the best golfers in the world and the best amateur players already incorporate a lot of stack and tilt principals whether they realize it or not.

[Leftygolfer]

+1 on S&T; not being a different way to swing. It is just teaching people what works and what great players actually do and not what they think they feel they do.

Anyone who thinks Tiger wouldn't win again isn't living in reality. It is going to take time but I believe he will be back to his 2000 form or close to it by middle of next year. I hope not but he is just too good to not figure this out.

[majorchamp]

What is wrong with Tiger's previous swing? You know, the one that garnered him 14 majors, 70+ wins, 3 US amateur titles, 3 US junior amateur titles, and over $100 million in money? Why doesn't he just use that one?

Becuase Tiger doesn't swing the same way now as he did when he won most of those tournaments. With his past injuries, his body just won't allow it.

Yea, the one that looks like this? There is nothing in this swing, IMO, that his knee or any other of his injuries should be affected by any more then his current swing. I don't buy it. He isn't swinging as hard...but just watch this practice session in Bangkok, that is the swing that was blowing fields away by dozens of shots. If anything, his swing looks simple.

[majorchamp]

Yea, the one that looks like this? There is nothing in this swing, IMO, that his knee or any other of his injuries should be affected by any more then his current swing. I don't buy it.

it amazes me how outside his backswing looks in this video

[majorchamp]

+1 on S&T; not being a different way to swing. It is just teaching people what works and what great players actually do and not what they think they feel they do.

Yea, haney really did a number on his swing. Even if he was winning majors or winning more pga tour titles...his wins never felt dominant...just seemed like he was winning by scratching by.

Now, for most players..a win is a win is a win. But Tiger's game is so much better then to win in a playoff or by 1-2 shots.

[kafka01]

The more you understand Stack and Tilt, the more you realize that majority of the best golfers in the world and the best amateur players already incorporate a lot of stack and tilt principals whether they realize it or not.

So the "Stack & Tilt" principals have been around for a long time (which obv. has to be the case when people are using it effictively already), but somebody came along, defined a clear pattern and named this thing S&T; and is now selling it to the public as "THE NEXT BIG THING"? Hmmmm...

I´m almost 100% that Tiger is not working with Foley cuz all of a sudden he belives a S&T; pattern will heal all his troubles. And from what i understand, all the other players Foley teaches, arent pure S&T;´ers either. They incorporate principals, but thats about as far as they go. A swing is like a trademark that sticks with you for a long time, and a tour pro who spent years of developing his swing, that made him what he is today (becoming a tour pro is a pretty recognisable thing already) will not be able to completly change into a different swing pattern - thats just not going to happen. They might tweak it here & there, but their basics stay the same. So, if Tiger goes with Foley and he changes some things in his swing - whatever results he might get out of it, calling AND selling it as a S&T; swing would be a joke. I heard this interview with Carl Petterson, where he talked about his weight loss (in an attempt to get fitter), but the results were that it just didnt fit his swing anymore. So what did he do? Instead of adapting his swing - he just put the weight back on. So much for "easy" swing changes....

[kafka01]

it amazes me how outside his backswing looks in this video

Is it just me, or does his tempo on the range looks a lot quieter compared to on course. Everytime i see him on TV hitting a shot on the course it feels like he is trying to swing out of his shoes...

[sacm3bill]

Is it just me, or does his tempo on the range looks a lot quiter compared to on course. Everytime i see him on TV hitting a shot on the course it feels like he is trying to swing out of his shoes...

Nope, not just you - I thought the exact same thing. Kept waiting for him to stop hitting those easy/warmup shots, but after watching for a few minutes apparently those were his full swings.

[adamgoodman]

This forum is headquarters for the Stack and Tilt Nazi Regime.

Before anyone goes all S&T; Nazi on my ass, I would like to announce that I am joking.

[iacas]

"i'm stacked!!!"

God I hate that commercial... Funny thing is the guy who okayed it (CEO/Owner of Medicus) takes lessons at Golf Evolution.

I think he is more likely to destroy the S&T; swing if he keeps driving the ball like he is and failing. The man could single-handedly destroy the popularity of the technique. Someone please tell him to shift his weight back and keep his chin up.

How could he drive it any worse than he is right now? Is your last sentence facetious?

Tiger already had 90% of a S&T; swing in place before. The only major fundamental difference is the teaching method.

Ehhh.... more like 80%. Tiger needs a deeper hand path, more side tilting left to keep his head centered better and his shoulders turning on plane, and more left knee flex longer into the downswing. Yeah, I'm comfortable saying 80%.

So the "Stack & Tilt" principals have been around for a long time (which obv. has to be the case when people are using it effictively already), but somebody came along, defined a clear pattern and named this thing S&T; and is now selling it to the public as "THE NEXT BIG THING"? Hmmmm...

That's basically how it went. Except for the "next big thing" part. It's more like "let's get back to the actual fundamentals, folks."

I´m almost 100% that Tiger is not working with Foley cuz all of a sudden he belives a S&T; pattern will heal all his troubles.

No, he's working with Sean Foley because the things Sean Foley teaches, many of which he's gleaned from Mike and Andy, make sense to Tiger. The part about "pure S&Ters;" is an odd one because some people who are taught by Mike and Andy aren't "pure S&Ters;" either. Their swings don't look the same as each other's.

They incorporate principals, but thats about as far as they go.

That's as far as Mike and Andy go, too. Or as far as we go with students at the Academy.

They might tweak it here & there, but their basics stay the same.

Tiger's swing has changed rather significantly. Hogan's swing from Power Golf to Five Lessons was a fair bit different (and remarkably different from his earlier hook-heavy days).

So, if Tiger goes with Foley and he changes some things in his swing - whatever results he might get out of it, calling AND selling it as a S&T; swing would be a joke.

I don't think anyone here's doing that. I'm not. I just say that Foley has used his understanding of S&T; from Mike and Andy to do the same thing all of us in the S&T; instruction group do - to use pieces the player needs to get better. Sometimes that's a piece or two. Sometimes it's four or five. It's never a wholesale "take it or leave it" approach.

This forum is headquarters for the Stack and Tilt Nazi Regime.

Please answer your door when the secret police arrive. You've won a "vacation."

[tsdnorton]

agreed. The only thing S&T; has now is an official name, but most of the qualities of what it promotes is what the great players have done for the last 60 years.

You're telling me that for the last 60 years people have been putting almost all of their weight on their front foot and taken away the possibility of hitting the ball fat?

[sean_miller]

Please answer your door when the secret police arrive. You've won a "vacation."

Okay, now that's funny! Maybe not as funny as Adam's outfit, but it's at least a tie!!

[adamgoodman]

Okay, now that's funny! Maybe not as funny as Adam's outfit, but it's at least a tie!!

I'm nominating myself for The Sand Trap's best dressed.

[iacas]

You're telling me that for the last 60 years people have been putting almost all of their weight on their front foot and taken away the possibility of hitting the ball fat?

First of all, the feeling is that it's 55/45 at setup, not "almost all of their weight."

The point of the feeling of keeping your weight forward is to help eliminate the swaying back off the ball. In reality, a golfer's weight (in S&T;) still moves back to the right because their chest, arms, hands, etc. go right, but the point of feeling (emphasis on feeling) "weight forward" is to help the golfer get the weight to where it needs to be at impact - rather far forward (still not "almost all their weight," but close - 80% or so). With a sway, almost nobody can get as far forward as they need to be at impact, and it's a slower way to swing. I could show you parts of Ben Hogan's "Five Lessons" book where he talks about a centered shoulder turn. Ben Hogan remained "stacked" on the backswing. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that Ben Hogan's swing was as close to doing almost all of the pieces of the S&T; pattern as any golfer pre-1960 or 1970 (or, perhaps, 1990). He had a centered shoulder turn, an inward hand path (on plane), a hip turn on an inclined plane with a straightening right leg, his head didn't translate off the ball, he had a good shoulder pitch, and he used his hips effectively on the downswing. He played a push fade instead of a push draw, but that's a matter of alignment. Ben Hogan illustrates almost all of the principles incredibly well. So no, we're not telling you that - but the pictures tell us that lots and lots of the best golfers did a lot of the principles. Yes. In fact, that's basically how S&T; came to be - by studying and classifying what the best and worst players did and how they did them (differently).

[ohiolefty]

I'm not going go read through the whole thread or go nutso into S&T; minutia...

But aren't most S&T; principles sound, basic golfswing stuff presented in a more sensible and sensical way?!?!?! That's always been my impression, from a far, of the 'method'.

[iacas]

But aren't most S&T; principles sound, basic golfswing stuff presented in a more sensible and sensical way?!?!?! That's always been my impression, from a far, of the 'method'.

Yep.

I'm not entirely sure what the point of this thread is. I'll again point out that even those PGA Tour players taught by Mike and Andy aren't all doing EVERY SINGLE ONE of the S&T; pieces. They've added the ones they need to their swings. The best players in the world all do a lot of the S&T; pieces. Not all... but again, not even those taught by Mike and Andy do ALL of the pieces. And I think that's about all I have to say in this thread.