Heres why I believe a Slice is caused by AN OPEN FACE!

[iacas]

Please quote properly in the future. That involves using the quote tool, not just putting "" around things.

AS ive taught and seen many be taught ...by MANY WORLD CLASS instructors...

No offense intended here, but so what? Hank Haney's still one of the top guys in the world but he teaches nobody on the Tour that I can name and couldn't help either of his two famous students on the TV show get any better.

A lot of the "world class" guys don't even know the proper ball flight laws. One of the guys we had at our Academy had never hit a push-draw in his life. He'd spent two months with David Leadbetter with one of the top guys there... Know how many swings it took for us to get him to hit a nice draw? Four.

PATH is not the easiest solution...

Surely you've heard of the phrase "if it ain't broke, don't fix it." A clubface that's square to the target doesn't need "fixing."

AWESOME...I hope you get people playing better the golf biz needs it....Do you have any information..trackman data..youtube vids to back this up at all ..would love to learn from it>?

You're new here, but yeah, we have plenty of data to back it up. Look up Golf Evolution - it's in my sig below, on YouTube, etc. Our students are the best advertisement we have, as well.

If there getting ott to avoid an open face push that would start right and go right then it does matter because you address the cause not the effect.

Nope. They're not nearly as linked as you seem to believe they are.

You're suggesting that a student has an open clubface, so they start to try to pull the ball to the left, and if you fix that path then the clubface will again be too far open. I'm saying that no, that doesn't happen often at all. I'm a "never say never" kind of guy, but I will say that I can't recall ever seeing that happen.

Simply put then path alone cannot make the ball go right or slice but face can...wether you want to agree with that or not that is FACT.....

Yes, face open to the path is a slice, but that's irrelevant because nobody disagrees... Move on...

and that same 90 percent are ott because there trying to comensate for there open face...

As I said, they have a square or closed face, not an open one.

you cant just change path and not face(with a slicers body positions) as the whole club is orientated as one....

The "whole club is"

not "oriented as one," no. Not at all. If you change the path x degrees the clubface does not change x degrees as well, no.

IF you have path 0...and face 2 degrees open ball go right.....they start swinging ott 5 degrees outside in (moving the whole club orientation) and now the face is 3 degrees closed... so a total of 5 degrees both ways...Now if you change path you will move the face back to open ...

I'm sorry, but that simply doesn't happen. Maybe now and then, but not enough to worry about in this discussion, no.

Here's what typically happens... Joe comes to you with (all angles relative to the target) a clubface that's 3 degrees closed and a path that's 10 degrees outside in. You move the path so it's 2 degrees inside out and the clubface will often be square or a degree open. The path might move 12 degrees but the face barely moves at all - from 3 to square or so. That's what commonly happens. The club is not "a whole unit" and changing the path rarely makes for a corresponding 1:1 relationship with the clubface. If you think that it does then what you're saying probably makes sense to you. But that's now how it ends up happening in the real world with real golfers.

As someone said ....

Changing the path almost always changes the face angle relative to the path. They're not 1:1.

[Phil McGleno]

You're givin' this guy too much credit.

Here are some stats I've kept from my launch monitors...

When you change the path 1 degree, the face angle changes about 0.8 degrees.
When you change the path 3 degrees, the face angle changes about 1.1 degrees.
When you change the path 5 degrees, the face angle changes about 1.5 degrees.
When you change the path 10 degrees, the face angle changes about 1.9 degrees.

I don't have too many path changes of more than 10 degrees, but those I do have show a similar pattern: the face angle changes in a diminishing capacity. The larger the change in path, the farther from a "1:1 ratio" as you put it you'll see.

Heck, that's why the OTT pull-slicer will, if he starts swinging too far from the inside, hit snap hooks. You almost NEVER see that guy hitting huge push-slices, if anything you need to encourage him to open the face up more. He's so used to rolling the hands to try to start the ball left enough that he has trouble trusting that an open face or a square face is what he needs now.

But seriously, Bud, you've gotta stop wasting you're time with people who don't know they're grammar. It's never a good sign...

[max power]

But seriously, Bud, you've gotta stop wasting you're time with people who don't know they're grammar.

"their"

Otherwise, good post.

[slicer2scratch]

Only going to address 2 things that are relavent here...

1. HOW can a ball slice right with path alone or face alone>?
Simple fact based question>?
(I belive many disagree as the ball flight laws are confusing to the masses when talking relative to target or path)Not to me or you but many..

2.Not always the club and face work as one...but if your changing path I almost always see the face change with it ...maybe not 1:1 but if its outside in and open to path ...
I have seen the body position that are needed to change the inside approach properly totally change the face to to open.... Now you can work from there and try and get someone to close the face....But with the chronic/slicer /hacker... squaring the face from any path is something they dont do very well...
AS they hit more with there shoulders and upper body (spin) If the shoulders stay more closed to start and the legs shift more and the spine tilts away Now they have a chance to square it ,,,,but you had to change a few more things...

Question here is face or path not all others..

[iacas]

"their"

I think you missed his point. Pretty sure his intentional misspelling of both your and their was to poke some fun at someone...

1. HOW can a ball slice right with path alone or face alone>?

Nobody's said that.

I've said that 90%+ of golfers slice the ball due to the path being out of whack, not the face. Path 10 degrees across the ball, face square or closed to the target, for example. You fix the path, as it's the piece that's out of whack.

2.Not always the club and face work as one...but if your changing path I almost always see the face change with it ...maybe not 1:1 but if its outside in and open to path ...

And this is something on which you're simply wrong.

I'm gonna take Phil's advice. Good night.

[slicer2scratch]

Just posting on the fly there Phil...
Speaking of grammar
I had no idea givin' was a word though? Must come natural to you though.

As for your little data Im assuming your changing body positions to acheive the changes in path correct?

As you ignored the body positions ...because the whole purpose of the thread was PATH or FACE not all the things that go along with that and not what do you "fix"...

ALSO your avoiding answering the question of what makes a ball go right path alone or face alone...
because your statement is 90% of golfers slice due to path not face ...
so why cant you answer the simple fact based question>?

[max power]

I think you missed his point. Pretty sure his intentional misspelling of both your and their was to poke some fun at someone...

You are right-the rest of the post was filled with logic and facts, and I overlooked the comedy. In which case, kudos! And for any

Frisky Dingo fans out there-"Welcome To You're Doom!"

[Shanks A Million]

Heck, that's why the OTT pull-slicer will, if he starts swinging too far from the inside, hit snap hooks. You almost NEVER see that guy hitting huge push-slices, if anything you need to encourage him to open the face up more. He's so used to rolling the hands to try to start the ball left enough that he has trouble trusting that an open face or a square face is what he needs now.

Oh man, that's true right there.

[slicer2scratch]

Id love to see a you tube clip of anyone encouraging a slicer to open the face more please>?

Or better yet maybe a youtube challenge one 30 minute lesson to a random slicer...

You can only fix path..

Ill fix face>?

[motteler621]

Id love to see a you tube clip of anyone encouraging a slicer to open the face more please>?

if you fix the face as in make it square to the path, out to in. They are going to just start hitting pulls. I think attention should be paid to the path first, then if needed the face

[iacas]

Just posting on the fly there Phil...

You're really in no position to criticize (particularly when he put an apostrophe...).

As for your little data Im assuming your changing body positions to acheive the changes in path correct?

Look, I can't speak for Phil, but you're not getting anywhere with this "body positions" stuff. Obviously to change the path you're changing the body positions somewhat. That seems obvious to me.

Nobody has said that if you have a pull-slicer and you literally only change the path (what, by aiming the golfer way to the right and telling him to make the same swing????), but duh. Isn't that obvious? In that case you'd still have two problems: poor alignment and a poor path. Sure his path might be "square to the target" but only because he's aimed so far right. Pretty pointless endeavor there...

ALSO your avoiding answering the question of what makes a ball go right path alone or face alone...

Nobody's avoided anything. Either a) "your" not paying attention or b) "your" simply not getting it.

because your statement is 90% of golfers slice due to path not face ...

Okay, I'm going with c) all of the above. You're not paying attention and you're not getting it. This question has been answered.

[canadianpro]

Ditto Erik! It seems quite obvious that the clubface can be "open" in two ways...open to the intended target line (where the ball will land) or it can be open to the path....if it slices, the path needs to be corrected first. The "push draw" features a clubface aimed right of the target but closed slightly to the inside out path...a shot that starts left has a clubface closed to the target but open to the path...the path still has to be corrected first....can't be any other way

Simple eh?

[slicer2scratch]

Iacas...

You actually dont answer the question on what can make the ball go right path alone or face alone>? I know your implicating but you wont say it...Look its simple one word answer
a.Face b.Path>?

And actually the whole reason im in this post is because its not obvious to most..
As see I dont mind having a debate with you because you make arguments for your case and actually know the golf swing...However Many dont and are completely getting confused as they just an open face hits a draw.

As for Phil its easy to criticize over the interenet , I promise he doesnt know me or what I have been through and MOST DEFINATELY would not disrespect me in person!

[motteler621]

Iacas...

Depends on what you mean by "right", thats pretty vague. Right as in a straight push or a ball that slices or fades right? but its both face relative to path.

[slicer2scratch]

See thats were I believe SOME people get confused you see...
If your path is outside and the face is square to the path the ball CANNOT go right..
wether its a good shot or even a good swing
the path alone cannot make the ball go right

[Williamevanl]

Iacas...

Lol, we've reached the I'll fight everyone phase of this argument. Brian Bocar, Edwin Watts employee by day, cage fighter by night!

http://www.edwinwattslc.com/dallas.html

[slicer2scratch]

So actually never said id fight anyone...
However will since i started this on golfwrx...
and thats pretty even as face and path..
came to sandtrap at your request took my licks here..

[motteler621]

See thats were I believe SOME people get confused you see...

only if the face is equal to the path out to in will it not go right at all, but be a push to whatever degree you are swinging out to in.Now if that face opens a little on the same path it's going to start having fade spin