We're not worried about etiquette today

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by NEOHMark

. . . trying to get across.

I wasn't saying you accused anyone of that, but when you keep taking sentences out of context, they tend to lose meaning. The OP was telling someone they were part of the problem because they didn't think he handled things the best way. That kind of irrational outburst shines some light (for me) on how his conversation with the other teacher actually went.

[Tomboys]

Originally Posted by NEOHMark

I kind of get what you are saying, but I'm struggling to wrap my head around this.  It sounds pithy and chic, but I don't know that it necessarily passes muster in the logic department.  If the OP is part of the 'problem', then it implies he is somehow contributing to these young players' lack of etiquette and safety on the course.  I'm not convinced it's the OP's responsibility to do so (correct their actions, that is).  Yeah, following up with a phone call may be a noble thing to do, but IMHO the reality is - it's the school's responsibility (the school who hired the advisor of their Golf Club) to either hire someone who knows that part of the game or, if he doesn't, make sure he's willing to learn it and then impart it on the kids.

The OP made his point to the advisor.  Whether or not it was done appropriately, I suppose, can be argued (I happen to think it was).  But point being - he did speak up and address a problem.  I don't believe it's necessary for him to follow up further to avoid being 'part of the problem'.  JMHO

I understand where you are coming from.  The problem, as I see it, is that the kids (students) at the golf course that day lacked the proper golf etiquette which reduced OP's enjoyment and compromised their own safety.  Perhaps I was being pithy and chic by calling the OP "part of the problem", but I stand by my statement nonetheless.

As Sean_Miller, IMO, correctly pointed out, when the coach replied that they weren't concerned with golf etiquette today, red flags should've went up.  At that point, OP could've simply said that the etiquette "rules" governs safety issues as well.  From there, he could have offered to provide that information.  Unfortunately, OP didn't.  Instead, he chose to say that it's intrinsic and walk away.  From there, OP went home got on the 'net, researched this coach, got on this forum and created a thread to tell everyone on the Sand Trap Forum who this coach is and chronicled the horrendous actions on the golf course.  How does this help educate the coach and, ultimately, the kids?  In short, it doesn't.  Sure, we can all feign off accountability by simply stating, "It's not my responsibility".  But, I don't buy that because IMO, if you take the time to make someone aware of a problem and decline to share the solution--even though you have it, then you're allowing the problem to perpetuate.  Hence, you have effectively become "part of the problem".

As such, this is why I said that the OP is "part of the problem" if he decides not to call the coach.  OP has the information to rectify the etiquette problem he witnessed, yet won't bother to offer it.  OP is a teacher, so he's used to presenting a problem and presenting the solution.  So, the concept is not exactly foreign to him.  Even more compelling is that OP stated he has educated others in golf etiquette, why stop now?  Because it's someone else's responsibility?  Please.

For the OP: I'm willing to put my money where my mouth is.  If you're inclined, PM me the coach's name and school that he works at.  I will call him to offer the information.

[turtleback]

Originally Posted by sean_miller

I wasn't saying you accused anyone of that, but when you keep taking sentences out of context, they tend to lose meaning. The OP was telling someone they were part of the problem because they didn't think he handled things the best way. That kind of irrational outburst shines some light (for me) on how his conversation with the other teacher actually went.

Way to take me out of context.  I said he was part of the problem because he didn't seem to think etiquette was important.

[turtleback]

Originally Posted by Tomboys

Unfortunately, OP didn't.  Instead, he chose to say that it's intrinsic and walk away.  From there, OP went home got on the 'net, researched this coach, got on this forum and created a thread to tell everyone on the Sand Trap Forum who this coach is and chronicled the horrendous actions on the golf course.  How does this help educate the coach and, ultimately, the kids?  In short, it doesn't.

For the OP: I'm willing to put my money where my mouth is.  If you're inclined, PM me the coach's name and school that he works at.  I will call him to offer the information.

As to the first part, it was obvious from how he got all huffy that this was not a teachable moment.

And I didn't get on the net and research him, another teacher at my school, who is a golfer, told me who he was when we were chatting about it.

And I didn't tell everyone who this coach is.  You don't know who he is, do you?  I didn't think so.

As to chronicling his actions?  Really?  Silly me, I thought his was like sitting around the table at the 19th hole chatting about things that happened on the course that day.  I suppose you have never chatted with your playing partners about something the folks ahead of you did without going and trying to "fix" them?

And it is not my responsibility to educate him - From what the other teacher told me about him I'm pretty sure he knows better but just couldn't be bothered to supervise the kids.  If I ever act as adviser to a school golf club THEN it will be my responsibility and I will exercise and fulfill it.  When I take a new golfer out on the course, THEN it will be my responsibility and I will exercise it and fulfill it.  But it is not my responsibility to right all the wrongs in the world, or even on the golf course.

As to your offer - that would be a little weird.  And kind of creepy.

[Harmonious]

Originally Posted by turtleback

As to the first part, it was obvious from how he got all huffy that this was not a teachable moment.

And I didn't get on the net and research him, another teacher at my school, who is a golfer, told me who he was when we were chatting about it.

And I didn't tell everyone who this coach is.  You don't know who he is, do you?  I didn't think so.

As to chronicling his actions?  Really?  Silly me, I thought his was like sitting around the table at the 19th hole chatting about things that happened on the course that day.  I suppose you have never chatted with your playing partners about something the folks ahead of you did without going and trying to "fix" them?

And it is not my responsibility to educate him - From what the other teacher told me about him I'm pretty sure he knows better but just couldn't be bothered to supervise the kids.  If I ever act as adviser to a school golf club THEN it will be my responsibility and I will exercise and fulfill it.  When I take a new golfer out on the course, THEN it will be my responsibility and I will exercise it and fulfill it.  But it is not my responsibility to right all the wrongs in the world, or even on the golf course.

As to your offer - that would be a little weird.  And kind of creepy.

So,  what exactly was the reason for your original post?  Just to describe what a jerk someone else was, and to be congratulated by the SandTrap members for exercising good judgment and charm?  As usually happens when someone starts a "what a ****** the other guy was" thread, there will be a split decision as to who was in the wrong and, generally, the OP will get huffy, like you have done.

Having read through the three pages of back and forth, I would agree that you could actually make some good out of this situation with a simple phone call to the other guy.  What could it hurt? After all, those same kids will be out at that course on another day.

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by turtleback

Way to take me out of context.  I said he was part of the problem because he didn't seem to think etiquette was important.

The guy from Wisconsin must have interpreted something in your tone as warranting the other teacher's huffy response. I had no opinion either way, until you accused him of being "part of the problem". I questioned how someone in this thread is part of the problem. That poster is not that teacher and if he were, I suspect those kids wouldn't have made it past the first hole without being scolded. Based on other posts, he's not the part of any problem, he just took a disliking to the comments you allegedly made to the other instructor. Perhaps it's easier to be judgmental when we weren't there, but that's the beauty of the internet.

[turtleback]

Originally Posted by Harmonious

So,  what exactly was the reason for your original post?  Just to describe what a jerk someone else was, and to be congratulated by the SandTrap members for exercising good judgment and charm?  As usually happens when someone starts a "what a ****** the other guy was" thread, there will be a split decision as to who was in the wrong and, generally, the OP will get huffy, like you have done.

Having read through the three pages of back and forth, I would agree that you could actually make some good out of this situation with a simple phone call to the other guy.  What could it hurt? After all, those same kids will be out at that course on another day.

It is a golf discussion board.  We discuss golf.  It was something strange that happened on the course. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

[Tomboys]

Originally Posted by turtleback

As to the first part, it was obvious from how he got all huffy that this was not a teachable moment.

And I didn't get on the net and research him, another teacher at my school, who is a golfer, told me who he was when we were chatting about it.

And I didn't tell everyone who this coach is.  You don't know who he is, do you?  I didn't think so.

As to chronicling his actions?  Really?  Silly me, I thought his was like sitting around the table at the 19th hole chatting about things that happened on the course that day.  I suppose you have never chatted with your playing partners about something the folks ahead of you did without going and trying to "fix" them?

And it is not my responsibility to educate him - From what the other teacher told me about him I'm pretty sure he knows better but just couldn't be bothered to supervise the kids.  If I ever act as adviser to a school golf club THEN it will be my responsibility and I will exercise and fulfill it.  When I take a new golfer out on the course, THEN it will be my responsibility and I will exercise it and fulfill it.  But it is not my responsibility to right all the wrongs in the world, or even on the golf course.

As to your offer - that would be a little weird.  And kind of creepy.

I could give a heavily detailed response, but I think it would lead us into all sorts of different tangents.  At the end of the day, it would just be counter-productive.  The gist here is that I wasn't suggesting that you should become the second-coming of MLK, Jr. nor the MLK, Jr of the golf world.  However, the key element of your "discussion" that I gravitated towards was when you suggested to the other coach that he should include "basic golf etiquette today".  If you sincerely want no responsibility, then IMO, you don't suggest anything.  You keep your mouth shut and move on.  Or, at the very most, you do as TitleistWI suggested and say, "that's nice." and walk away.

As far as my offer, guess what?  I opened my mouth by suggesting that you call the other coach to offer information.  As such, I am now accountable and by not offering to do as I suggested that you do, then I become hypocritical and "part of the problem"--the problem being the kids not knowing basic golf etiquette.  I, too, have knowledge of basic golf etiquette and, like you, I have passed along that information to (new) people I've taken to the golf course.  Does my offer make me a creepy-weirdo?  Maybe to you it does.  Maybe to others it does, maybe it doesn't.  Don't know, don't care.  But, as I said earlier, I opened up my big mouth, so I'm willing to be part of the solution by actively doing something instead of just posting from my comfortable, safe and anonymous computer.

Originally Posted by Harmonious

I would agree that you could actually make some good out of this situation with a simple phone call to the other guy.  What could it hurt? After all, those same kids will be out at that course on another day.

Exactly.  Succinct and to the point.  We can tell others that they need to do something and hope it gets done.  Or, we can take an active role to ensure that it does get done.  If we do nothing--when we have the capability to do something, and nothing gets done, then who are we to b*tch?

Originally Posted by turtleback

It is a golf discussion board.  We discuss golf.  It was something strange that happened on the course. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

So, based on what you just wrote, you would classify potentially killing a kid with your drive and injuring another kid with your approach shot as strange.  Hmmm. interesting.

[NEOHMark]

Originally Posted by Tomboys

I understand where you are coming from.  The problem, as I see it, is that the kids (students) at the golf course that day lacked the proper golf etiquette which reduced OP's enjoyment and compromised their own safety.  Perhaps I was being pithy and chic by calling the OP "part of the problem", but I stand by my statement nonetheless.

As Sean_Miller, IMO, correctly pointed out, when the coach replied that they weren't concerned with golf etiquette today, red flags should've went up.  At that point, OP could've simply said that the etiquette "rules" governs safety issues as well.  From there, he could have offered to provide that information.  Unfortunately, OP didn't.  Instead, he chose to say that it's intrinsic and walk away.  From there, OP went home got on the 'net, researched this coach, got on this forum and created a thread to tell everyone on the Sand Trap Forum who this coach is and chronicled the horrendous actions on the golf course.  How does this help educate the coach and, ultimately, the kids?  In short, it doesn't.  Sure, we can all feign off accountability by simply stating, "It's not my responsibility".  But, I don't buy that because IMO, if you take the time to make someone aware of a problem and decline to share the solution--even though you have it, then you're allowing the problem to perpetuate.  Hence, you have effectively become "part of the problem".

As such, this is why I said that the OP is "part of the problem" if he decides not to call the coach.  OP has the information to rectify the etiquette problem he witnessed, yet won't bother to offer it.  OP is a teacher, so he's used to presenting a problem and presenting the solution.  So, the concept is not exactly foreign to him.  Even more compelling is that OP stated he has educated others in golf etiquette, why stop now?  Because it's someone else's responsibility?  Please.

For the OP: I'm willing to put my money where my mouth is.  If you're inclined, PM me the coach's name and school that he works at.  I will call him to offer the information.

Thanks, Tomboy.  That's a thoughtful and detailed clarification of your POV.  I appreciate that.

I may not agree 100%, but I can definitely empathize with your thoughts.

From my POV, I loved bringing up two young boys and teaching them the game of golf - the right way.  Your expounding of your thoughts encourages me to expand upon that and perhaps offer, politely (critical, IMHO) some pointers to folks on the course that are obviously ignorant to the aspects of safety and etiquette.

I'd bet a sincere, "Just a thought, but you may be putting yourself in danger by doing 'X'" is probably a lot easier way to broach the subject than framing it in terms of etiquette.

Thanks for being thoughtful, and considered, in your response.   MUCH appreciated.

[Tomboys]

Originally Posted by NEOHMark

Thanks, Tomboy.  That's a thoughtful and detailed clarification of your POV.  I appreciate that.

I may not agree 100%, but I can definitely empathize with your thoughts.

From my POV, I loved bringing up two young boys and teaching them the game of golf - the right way.  Your expounding of your thoughts encourages me to expand upon that and perhaps offer, politely (critical, IMHO) some pointers to folks on the course that are obviously ignorant to the aspects of safety and etiquette.

I'd bet a sincere, "Just a thought, but you may be putting yourself in danger by doing 'X'" is probably a lot easier way to broach the subject than framing it in terms of etiquette.

Thanks for being thoughtful, and considered, in your response.   MUCH appreciated.

You're welcome.

I applaud your desire to "pay it forward" .  At any rate, enough of this man-love , let's move the topic to something a little more positive; how are the two young boys doing at golf?  Still playing I hope.

[NEOHMark]

Originally Posted by Tomboys

You're welcome.

I applaud your desire to "pay it forward".  At any rate, enough of this man-love, let's move the topic to something a little more positive; how are the two young boys doing at golf?  Still playing I hope.

My boys?  LOL, yes they still play.  But I'm a little older (50)  - and Mrs. NEOH and I had them when we were relatively young.  They're now 26 and 22 .  The boys and I play on the same league spring-through-fall, a league my oldest found through his work.  They both hit it a country mile - WAYY longer than me - but they're both a little wild.  For now, the old man still outscores them, but only by a stroke or two per 9.  Not sure that I can hold them off another year -  hahaha.

It's been one of my greatest joys - to be able to do stuff with them now....beyond the younger parent/child years.  They're both good guys (Mrs. NEOH had a lot to do with that too, BTW - she's a peach) and they both respect the hell out of the game.  They play it down, fill their divots, fix their ball marks, respect the teachings of the league 'elders', and are genuinely enthusiastic about the game.  I couldn't be prouder. Thanks for letting me crow about them a bit - haha.

How about you - you have kids?

[Tomboys]

Originally Posted by NEOHMark

My boys?  LOL, yes they still play.  But I'm a little older (50)  - and Mrs. NEOH and I had them when we were relatively young.  They're now 26 and 22 .  The boys and I play on the same league spring-through-fall, a league my oldest found through his work.  They both hit it a country mile - WAYY longer than me - but they're both a little wild.  For now, the old man still outscores them, but only by a stroke or two per 9.  Not sure that I can hold them off another year -  hahaha.

It's been one of my greatest joys - to be able to do stuff with them now....beyond the younger parent/child years.  They're both good guys (Mrs. NEOH had a lot to do with that too, BTW - she's a peach) and they both respect the hell out of the game.  They play it down, fill their divots, fix their ball marks, respect the teachings of the league 'elders', and are genuinely enthusiastic about the game.  I couldn't be prouder.    Thanks for letting me crow about them a bit - haha.

How about you - you have kids?

Well, compared to me (48) your boys are still young LOL.  In all seriousness, it sounds like you have good reasons to be proud.  Well done to you and the Mrs.

I have four boys (29, 21, 19 and 14) plus two grandkids (grandson is 8 & granddaughter is 2).  So I, like you, started pretty early.  I tried to get them into golf, but they all played baseball instead.  There was @ seven year period where they played year-round travel baseball (the 19 & 14 year olds), so it was almost every weekend where they played in a tournament all over the place.  It was brutal and the major contributor to my golf game stalling and even regressing.  But, no regrets and I enjoyed watching them play.

My 14 year old was the only one that showed something of an interest in golf--albeit just for a brief period of time.  At the risk of sounding like a proud papa, he was a beast.  He showed some great promise.

Unfortunately, he's no longer playing baseball or golf.  He chose to play the drums instead now, so that's what he does.  I've been gently encouraging him to take up golf again and he's warming up to the idea, but so far, nothing.  I didn't want to become overbearing like his mother (my ex) was with baseball.  She was the one that kept pushing him to play baseball and, at one point, she had him on 3 different teams simultaneously.  His grades suffered, he had no time for friends--outside of baseball, and he eventually burned out which I kept warning her about.  But, she wasn't having any of it and kept saying that it was his decision to play that much--it wasn't.

Oh well.

[number1hacker]

I play in Thailand and not letting someone play though is a normal occurrence!! Weekends can be quite fustrating becuase I normally play in a 2 ball and often get stuck behind an extemely slow 6 ball. I'll give the Thais this though, they always remember the flag!!

[NEOHMark]

Originally Posted by Tomboys

Well, compared to me (48) your boys are still young LOL.  In all seriousness, it sounds like you have good reasons to be proud.  Well done to you and the Mrs.

I have four boys (29, 21, 19 and 14) plus two grandkids (grandson is 8 & granddaughter is 2).  So I, like you, started pretty early.  I tried to get them into golf, but they all played baseball instead.  There was @ seven year period where they played year-round travel baseball (the 19 & 14 year olds), so it was almost every weekend where they played in a tournament all over the place.  It was brutal and the major contributor to my golf game stalling and even regressing.  But, no regrets and I enjoyed watching them play.

My 14 year old was the only one that showed something of an interest in golf--albeit just for a brief period of time.  At the risk of sounding like a proud papa, he was a beast.  He showed some great promise.

Unfortunately, he's no longer playing baseball or golf.  He chose to play the drums instead now, so that's what he does.  I've been gently encouraging him to take up golf again and he's warming up to the idea, but so far, nothing.  I didn't want to become overbearing like his mother (my ex) was with baseball.  She was the one that kept pushing him to play baseball and, at one point, she had him on 3 different teams simultaneously.  His grades suffered, he had no time for friends--outside of baseball, and he eventually burned out which I kept warning her about.  But, she wasn't having any of it and kept saying that it was his decision to play that much--it wasn't.

Oh well.

I'm so sorry to hear of your boys' burnout on baseball.  I umpire HS baseball and officiate a little bit of youth 'travel ball' in the summer.  You see it all the time.  You can just tell when a kid's heart isn't into it and is only there because a parent is pushing him.

[ghalfaire]

Turtleback was, IMHO, correct is saying something to the adult.  I might have said it differently but he did the right thing.  The kids won't ever know unless someone teaches them and sometimes lessons can get harder as you age.  But a club I belong to has a "Kids Clinic" for a week each year for kids 4 to 17.  The first lessons are safety, etiquette and respect for the facilities and others on the course.  The course is pretty much turned over to the kids in the afternoons during this week but most of the younger kids have adult members with them to ensure no one gets hurt.  Again safety and etiquette are taught and enforced on the course by the members.  I believe this week is a great thing that the members do and hopefully we are developing a group of golfers that respect the game and others that play it.

[gir]

You'd think coaches would know better, but I had a coach with two students cut right in front of me a few weeks ago.  I was finishing up on 17 and then I see them coming from some other part of the course and proceeding to the 18th teebox.  Then when I walk up, they ask me if I "wanna hit".  I don't get these people.  If you're heading in and want to play 18, at least don't cut in front of people on 17.

[graham57]

I play in Thailand and not letting someone play though is a normal occurrence!! Weekends can be quite fustrating becuase I normally play in a 2 ball and often get stuck behind an extemely slow 6 ball. I'll give the Thais this though, they always remember the flag!!

I know this is basically a dormant thread, but it was interesting to come across a post from someone else who plays in Thailand, and maybe you'll see this. To be fair, caddies are mandatory on every course I have played in THailand, and they are responsible for replacing the flag, repairing divots and pitch marks, etc., and generally do a very good job. In another thread, I mentioned the "call holes", which I have only seen in Asia, which are basically a method to force the opportunity for faster groups to play through. I always feel slightly uncomfortable when benefitting from this, but it's all part of the game there.