Ball playable in waterhazard .......

[Gerald]

Last week one of my competitors hit his ball within the boundary of a Lateral waterhazard, but it was still playable ...... he struck at it and instead of getting the ball out it went further in the water hazard.

He decided to drop a new ball, but he decided to drop it outside the waterhazard (within two clublengths).......

Some of us thought he made a mistake and he should have dropped the ball at the playable spot within the lateral waterhazard instead of outside the lateral waterhazard.

What is right ????

[turtleback]

Originally Posted by Gerald

Last week one of my competitors hit his ball within the boundary of a Lateral waterhazard, but it was still playable ...... he struck at it and instead of getting the ball out it went further in the water hazard.

He decided to drop a new ball, but he decided to drop it outside the waterhazard (within two clublengths).......

Some of us thought he made a mistake and he should have dropped the ball at the playable spot within the lateral waterhazard instead of outside the lateral waterhazard.

What is right ????

26-2. Ball Played Within Water Hazard

a. Ball Comes to Rest in Same or Another Water Hazard

If a ball played from within a water hazard comes to rest in the same or another water hazard after the stroke , the player may:

(i) proceed under Rule 26-1 a. If, after dropping in the hazard, the player elects not to play the dropped ball, he may:

(a) proceed under Rule 26-1 b, or if applicable Rule 26-1 c, adding the additional penalty of one stroke prescribed by the Rule and using as the reference point the point where the original ball last crossed the margin of this hazard before it came to rest in this hazard ; or

Based on that I think your friend was partially right.  I think this is saying that when he went back to the (playable) ball within the lateral hazard line he still retained the same options he had originally.  If the shot that put him in the lateral originally was his drive he would lie 4 after making his drop (the drive, the shot from the playable hazard into the water, the penalty stroke to get back to the playable hazard spot, and the penalty stroke to take the 2 club length drop.)  I'm guessing that he thought he could take the drop and only lie 3?

[jwrussell]

I'm not following where the extra stroke is coming from.  Or is the rule saying that you have to drop within the hazard, and that if you elect not to play that ball you are taking an unplayable lie?  Color me confused.

[Fourputt]

Turtleback didn't quote the entire rule, and that creates some confusion.  Here is Rule 26-2 in it's entirety:

Quote:

26-2. Ball Played Within Water Hazard

a. Ball Comes to Rest in Same or Another Water Hazard

If a ball played from within a water hazard comes to rest in the same or another water hazard after the stroke , the player may:

(i) proceed under Rule 26-1 a. If, after dropping in the hazard, the player elects not to play the dropped ball, he may:

(a) proceed under Rule 26-1 b, or if applicable Rule 26-1 c, adding the additional penalty of one stroke prescribed by the Rule and using as the reference point the point where the original ball last crossed the margin of this hazard before it came to rest in this hazard ; or

(b) add an additional penalty of one stroke and play a ball as nearly as possible at the spot from which
the last stroke from outside a water hazard was made (see Rule 20-5 ); or

(ii) proceed under Rule 26-1b , or if applicable Rule 26-1 c; or

(iii) under penalty of one stroke, play a ball as nearly as possible at the spot from which the last stroke from outside a water hazard was made (see Rule 20-5 ).

So this means that the player may:

1)  Drop a ball within the hazard as near as possible to where he played the previous stroke from inside the water hazard (one penalty stroke).  Then if he decides at this point not to play from there, he must add another penalty stroke and he may proceed under any of the 3 options under Rule 26-1.  Changing his mind will cost him an additional penalty stroke for choosing another option.

2)  Drop a ball outside of the hazard under 26-1b or 26-1c using the point where the ball last crossed into the hazard as his reference point , and add the appropriate penalty stroke.  If he chooses either of these options he is charged just one penalty stroke, but the stroke made from within the hazard counts.

3)  Drop a ball at the point where he last played from outside of the hazard , but for this privilege he is charged an additional penalty stroke (2 strokes total), because he is backing up 2 strokes.

Consider carefully before you make a decision to play from within the hazard, or if already played, choose your option wisely.  Penalty strokes can add up fast when you start taking chances here.

[Gerald]

Yepppp !!!!

That is what I said..... he had to drop inside the Waterhazard with one penalty stroke and from there he had the opportunity to declare in unplayable and redrop within 2 clublengths from the lateral waterhazard with an extra penalty stroke....... instead he decided to drop outside, so a gave him two penalty strokes and told him it should have been actually 3, because he broke rule 26-1 plus 1 for the drop....... and said it would be wise to accept or ask the committee afterwards, who probably would give him the 3 strokes ...... he didn't accept, signed his card with only one stroke and was disqualified by the committee.

Quote:

1)  Drop a ball within the hazard as near as possible to where he played the previous stroke from inside the water hazard (one penalty stroke).  Then if he decides at this point not to play from there, he must add another penalty stroke and he may proceed under any of the 3 options under Rule 26-1.  Changing his mind will cost him an additional penalty stroke for choosing another option.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by Gerald

Yepppp !!!!

That is what I said..... he had to drop inside the Waterhazard with one penalty stroke and from there he had the opportunity to declare in unplayable and redrop within 2 clublengths from the lateral waterhazard with an extra penalty stroke....... instead he decided to drop outside, so a gave him two penalty strokes and told him it should have been actually 3, because he broke rule 26-1 plus 1 for the drop....... and said it would be wise to accept or ask the committee afterwards, who probably would give him the 3 strokes ...... he didn't accept, signed his card with only one stroke and was disqualified by the committee.

You still have it wrong.  If he chose the second or third option under Rule 26-1 before he dropped the ball in the hazard, he only incurred one penalty stroke.

This is how I read 26-2a(ii).  If he proceeds directly under 26-1b or 26-1c he only incurs one penalty stroke, as well as the stroke taken from within the hazard.  He only adds the additional penalty stroke if he proceeds directly with 26-1a outside of the hazard, or if he drops in the hazard under 26-1a before proceeding under any of the 3 options.

[jwrussell]

OK guys, bear with me here, I find it hard to follow these rules sometimes, and I'm not following this one.  As I read the rules above, the player has three choices once he's hit the ball within the hazard:

Quote:

(i) proceed under Rule 26-1 a. If, after dropping in the hazard, the player elects not to play the dropped ball, he may:

(a) proceed under Rule 26-1 b, or if applicable Rule 26-1 c, adding the additional penalty of one stroke prescribed by the Rule and using as the reference point the point where the original ball last crossed the margin of this hazard before it came to rest in this hazard ; or

(b) add an additional penalty of one stroke and play a ball as nearly as possible at the spot from which
the last stroke from outside a water hazard was made (see Rule 20-5 )

This is all ONE option.

OR:

Quote:

(ii) proceed under Rule 26-1b , or if applicable Rule 26-1 c

OR

Quote:

(iii) under penalty of one stroke, play a ball as nearly as possible at the spot from which the last stroke from outside a water hazard was made (see Rule 20-5 ).

There is no requirement that the golfer proceed under option 1 as Gerald suggests above (at least as I read it), so not dropping in the hazard first doesn't really matter here.  So where I'm confused (on one issue, another to come) is how the player is not considered to have proceeded under option 2 via Rule 26-1c.

Quote:

As additional options available only if the ball last crossed the margin of a lateral water hazard , drop a ball outside the water hazard within two club-lengths of and not nearer the hole than (i) the point where the original ball last crossed the margin of the water hazard or (ii) a point on the opposite margin of the water hazard equidistant from the hole .

Does it have to do with the wording "last crossed the margin"?  In other words, the "margin" is the boundary of the lateral water hazard and as described, the player's shot from within the hazard simply went farther in to the hazard, not crossing a "margin"?

The other thing don't understand is where you (Fourputt) are coming up with two strokes below.  The rule says "under penalty of one stroke", not two...?

Quote:

3)  Drop a ball at the point where he last played from outside of the hazard , but for this privilege he is charged an additional penalty stroke (2 strokes total), because he is backing up 2 strokes.

[Gerald]

OK .... went to decisions at the R&A; website :

26-2/2 :

In the case I asked for the ball went from let's say B to D, but didn't travel not over land, in other words it went from playable in the waterhazard to an unplayable place in the same waterhazard ......

In "my" case there is no dotted E-G line (over land).......

In "my" case the player hits the ball (from position B) further into the same waterhazard (position E) and decides to drop a ball within two clublenghts of position C ........

Now you can tell me if his next shot is his 4th, 5th or even 6th shot ......

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by Gerald

OK .... went to decisions at the R&A; website :

26-2/2 :

In the case I asked for the ball went from let's say E to D, but didn't travel not over land, in other words it went from playable in the waterhazard to an unplayable place in the same waterhazard ......

In "my" case there is no dotted E-G line (over land).......

In "my" case the player hits the ball (from position B) further into the same waterhazard (position E) and decides to drop a ball within two clublenghts of position C ........

Now you can tell me if his next shot is his 4th, 5th or even 6th shot ......

This decision doesn't even apply if the ball never left the hazard on his subsequent stroke.  You have to read Rule 26-2 in the following manner.

26-2 a:  First (i), then (a), then (b).  If (i)(a) or(i)(b) don't apply, then you go to (ii), and then to (iii).  (i)(a) and (i)(b) do not apply to (ii) or (iii).  Note the word "or" at the end of (i)(b) indicating the start of a different procedure.

I can't tell you how many strokes he's taken because you never told us what stroke he was on when he hit his ball into the hazard in the first place.  You also never told us if he dropped in the correct place under Rule 26-1c in relation to the point where his ball last crossed into the hazard.

[Gerald]

OK back to the original case, the hole is a par 3, the green is elevated, before the green is a downslope towards a big lake. The tee is on the other side of the lake. There was a strong headwind. You have to carry about 175 yds to land a ball on the front of the green and at least 140 yds to get over the lake ..... so we are talking of a par 3 ....... tee - lake - downslope - elevated green (not the easiest hole ...... I can tell you )

Anyway with the strong head wind (about 2 clubs extra) the player was too short to reach the green with his teeshot, landed on the downslope and it bounced back towards the lake...... the lake is defined by red stakes (overhere meaning it is a lateral water hazard) and the stakes are about 1 yd. from the edge of the lake ...... his ball ended between the line between the stakes and the edge of the lake (and latest crossed the markers from the green side)

The ball was lying in a terrible spot, still the player decided to give it a try and struck his shot (2nd shot) in the ground beneath the ball, the ball popped up in the air and the head wind blew it behind him in the lake.

Now what ????????

I personally would say he should drop his ball where he played that shot from (within the waterhazard boudaries), but he decided to drop within 2 clublengths, not nearer to the hole and hit his 4th shot from outside the hazard..........

And yet there is my question again, was this really his 4th shot, or should he first have dropped inside the boundaries of the hazard, declare it unplayable, redrop it outside the hazard and play his 5th shot........ or did he even break a rule by not first dropping within the hazard and did he got himself into 2 penalty strokes aswell.

(not to mention that he grounded his club at adres in the waterhazard ....... Pfff ...... maybe he didn't make a 9 at this hole, but a 13 or even 15 ........ )

[Fourputt]

If he grounded his club in the hazard, then that is an additional 2 stroke penalty which has nothing to do the rest of the scenario.  If that was the case, then he scored:

1 stroke from the tee

1 stroke from within the hazard (plus 2 penalty strokes for grounding his club)

1 penalty stroke for proceeding under Rule 26-1c and dropping outside of the hazard - Rule 26-2a(ii) does not require a drop within the hazard.

He should be lying 5, hitting 6 from where he dropped.

[Gerald]

Not to mention he had his worst day about ever, needing 120 strokes for 18 holes, playing from hc. 22 ....... more like hc. 48 ....... Oopssss.

I didn't play my best ....... but given the circumstances my 81 wasn't too bad.

[jwrussell]

The other thing don't understand is where you (Fourputt) are coming up with two strokes below. The rule says "under penalty of one stroke", not two...?

Quote:

3) Drop a ball at the point where he last played from outside of the hazard , but for this privilege he is charged an additional penalty stroke (2 strokes total), because he is backing up 2 strokes.

Sorry if that looks ugly, posting from phone. What about the above. I think I have a handle on the rest.

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jwrussell

Quote:

Originally Posted by jwrussell

The other thing don't understand is where you (Fourputt) are coming up with two strokes below. The rule says "under penalty of one stroke", not two...?

Quote:

3) Drop a ball at the point where he last played from outside of the hazard , but for this privilege he is charged an additional penalty stroke (2 strokes total), because he is backing up 2 strokes.

Sorry if that looks ugly, posting from phone. What about the above. I think I have a handle on the rest.

The reason for the 2 stroke penalty in this case is because of the wording of Rule 26-1a.  It states that in proceeding under this option, the player must drop a ball as near as possible to where he played his last stroke.  It does not make allowance for whether that stroke was inside or outside of the water hazard.  Thus to save time if the player wishes to simply return to the last point outside of the hazard, the rule assumes a drop within the hazard, then another drop outside of the hazard, with a penalty stroke attached to each drop.

Options under 26-1b and 26-1c do not require referencing the spot where the previous stroke was made, only the last point where the ball crossed the margin of the hazard, thus they only assess one penalty stroke if the player elects to move directly to one of those options without first dropping in the hazard.

It can be important to read and understand the exact wording of many of the rules.  Lightly skimming instead of carefully reading a rule often results in missing a key word or concept, resulting in misunderstanding or misapplication of the rule.

[jwrussell]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

The reason for the 2 stroke penalty in this case is because of the wording of Rule 26-1a.  It states that in proceeding under this option, the player must drop a ball as near as possible to where he played his last stroke.  It does not make allowance for whether that stroke was inside or outside of the water hazard.  Thus to save time if the player wishes to simply return to the last point outside of the hazard, the rule assumes a drop within the hazard, then another drop outside of the hazard, with a penalty stroke attached to each drop.

Options under 26-1b and 26-1c do not require referencing the spot where the previous stroke was made, only the last point where the ball crossed the margin of the hazard, thus they only assess one penalty stroke if the player elects to move directly to one of those options without first dropping in the hazard.

It can be important to read and understand the exact wording of many of the rules.  Lightly skimming instead of carefully reading a rule often results in missing a key word or concept, resulting in misunderstanding or misapplication of the rule.

Rule 26-2iii provides that the player may:

Quote:

under penalty of one stroke , play a ball as nearly as possible at the spot from which the last stroke from outside a water hazard was made (see Rule 20-5 ).

That's one stroke, not two and does not require that the player proceed under Rule 26-1a.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by jwrussell

Rule 26-2iii provides that the player may:

That's one stroke, not two and does not require that the player proceed under Rule 26-1a.

Ok, you got me.  Everyone misses occasionally.  What you ask would be just a straight stroke and distance penalty.  But I stand by my ruling of the OP's case.

[jwrussell]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Ok, you got me.  Everyone misses occasionally.  What you ask would be just a straight stroke and distance penalty.  But I stand by my ruling of the OP's case.

This wasn't about "getting you".  I was simply trying to make sure I understood the rule myself.  You said the same thing I was saying in other spots within the thread, so I was just trying to clear up some confusion.  I have no argument with you on your ruling on the OP's case.

[ohio golfer]

Too confusing; don't hit it into a hazard.

And if you do, proceed directly to the 19th hole.