Beware of the sandbaggers

[zeg]

Mid-cappers are by definition consistantly inconsistant.  All it takes for a mid-capper is a couple of lucky breaks and something in their swing to click and they can easily shoot in the low 80's.

That's exactly it for me. My lowest score was the result of three things: 1) hitting every shot solid (even if slicing/duck hooking) for nine consecutive holes, 2) putting well on the 3-10 footers, and 3) getting 3 or 4 lucky breaks. It took all three, but 1) and 2) align reasonably often. It's really 3) that can make the difference. Every time I was in the trees, I had a break where I could hit a clear shot to the green, or at least a punch that was in my comfort zone. If those shots had wound up 5 yards shorter or longer, it could easily have added 4 or 5 (or more) strokes to the round, making it a very typical score.

[Chief Broom]

I know for me I can easily see a 15 shot swing in my score on any given day.  I can break 80 just as easily as I can fail to break 90.  It just happens.  I play in a league and we play a stableford format and the league maintains each golfer's handicap (number of points we have to pull).  We're making a change where the points we need to pull will be based on a running average of our last ten league scores instead of adjusting them up or down based on each score (+ or - based on being 2 or more over or under).  It might help give the more consistant golfers a chance by smoothing out how fast a player's points are adjusted.  We'll see.

[Fourputt]

Just as an example:  The first time I ever broke 80 I scored what is still my personal best, a one over par 73.  I was carrying a 16 handicap at the time.  I've shot many rounds in the 70's since then, playing to a much lower handicap, but in 22 years I've never matched that score.  I've shot 74, 75, 76, on several occasions, even addressed my tee shot on the 18th standing at one under par, yet never matched that 73.

I don't sandbag, nor do I carry a vanity cap.  I'm just horribly inconsistent.  One round can be a 78, then next blow up to 91.  Most rounds on my home course are from 82 to 88, thus my 14 course handicap.

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Just as an example:  The first time I ever broke 80 I scored what is still my personal best, a one over par 73.  I was carrying a 16 handicap at the time.  I've shot many rounds in the 70's since then, playing to a much lower handicap, but in 22 years I've never matched that score.  I've shot 74, 75, 76, on several occasions, even addressed my tee shot on the 18th standing at one under par, yet never matched that 73.

I don't sandbag, nor do I carry a vanity cap.  I'm just horribly inconsistent.  One round can be a 78, then next blow up to 91.  Most rounds on my home course are from 82 to 88, thus my 14 course handicap.

I'm sure your index is valid (why wouldn't it be?!?) but if I had to give you 6 strokes and you threw one of those 74s on the board I'd be talking to the handicap committee. Just sayin'.

[SVTGolfer]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

A guy has ONE exceptional round and you accuse him of sandbagging?????  Sheesh.   An 82 is not that unusual for a bogey golfer to shoot for a single round, and 89 would be considered fairly normal.  I've shot many rounds in the 70's (my low is 73) while never carrying a handicap less than 10.  I suppose you'd accuse me too if you caught me on a good day.  Never mind that the next time I'm as likely to shoot a pair of 89's.

I was an 18 for a long time and if it shot below 95 I was having a stellar day! And it was not just one round, it was two rounds back to back that were under his apparent handicap. The handicap system is not exact I realize that, but most people with high handicaps are severely inconsistent, I know I was. I mean come on, Im lower than an 18 and ive never shot an 82! Especially in a tournament, and a final round of a tournament. He was baggin…

Originally Posted by Chief Broom

I disagree that this is blatant sandbagging.  As an 18 that means the guy's usual score is 90 (or thereabouts).  His opening round was close to his number and his 82 could easily have been the result of a good round.   Mid-cappers are by definition consistantly inconsistant.  All it takes for a mid-capper is a couple of lucky breaks and something in their swing to click and they can easily shoot in the low 80's.

The handicap system isn't perfect but it works pretty well especially when you play in flights.  After all aren't tournaments supposed to be won by the person who busts out a career round?

[Shindig]

Originally Posted by SVTGolfer

I was an 18 for a long time and if it shot below 95 I was having a stellar day! And it was not just one round, it was two rounds back to back that were under his apparent handicap. The handicap system is not exact I realize that, but most people with high handicaps are severely inconsistent, I know I was. I mean come on, Im lower than an 18 and ive never shot an 82! Especially in a tournament, and a final round of a tournament. He was baggin…

I guess it depends on the course.  18 handicappers shoot below 90 with some regularity at my home course.  In tournaments, the flight that typically 14+ is in plays from the blues, which are ~6300 yards, 70.0/122.  So high 80s aren't out of the question.  If the 18 handicap shot an 89 in a U.S. Open challenge, then I'd be surprised.  But of course, there are many courses in between mine and Congressional.

[Yukari]

In my experience, a bogey golfer is one of the hardest competitor to beat if playing with HC system.  That is because in a tournament with a lot of bogey golfers, one of them is bound to have a stellar day.  There is just too much fluctuation in a bogey golfer's score.  So when you have a lot of them in a tournament, a low handicapper is unlikely to win.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by SVTGolfer

I was an 18 for a long time and if it shot below 95 I was having a stellar day! And it was not just one round, it was two rounds back to back that were under his apparent handicap. The handicap system is not exact I realize that, but most people with high handicaps are severely inconsistent, I know I was. I mean come on, Im lower than an 18 and ive never shot an 82! Especially in a tournament, and a final round of a tournament. He was baggin…

I know several genuine bogey golfers who can easily shoot 82.  They can just as easily shoot 102.  You need to calm down and understand that not every exceptional score is the result of sandbagging.  I've been playing Men's Club competitions for 22 years, and trust me, when you see a sandbagger, you'll know it.

It's like out here in the west, we have both bull snakes and rattlesnakes, and both have sort of similar coloration.  The way to know which is which is, if you aren't sure what it is, then it's a bull snake.  When you see a rattlesnake there's no doubt.

[franky21]

Yesterday was our practice round and i played very very very bad.  I shot a 49 which is not very good for me but the course was soaked and i could not get my speed down on the green. I also could not get my distances right all day which didn't help because bad wedge game with bad putting equals high scores. What i am trying to get at is i played well over my handicapp and had the worst round of the year. Next week when i play my match, my handicapp is going to be  higher then what it should be. So if i go out there next week and shoot a 43 i really didn't cheat i just rebounded from a very poor round. Now that i have gotten many responses and actually played in my league for the first time i have a better understanding of how it works, if there is a sandbagger you will be able to spot him from a mile away. After reading the rules there is a pretty good system in place to keep everything relatively competitive and close. I have to say the low handicappers have there work cut out for them because they are starting 7 strokes down so they really can't afford to have a sluggish round,i have realized i have a chance to do well as long as i keep that 49 in my rear view mirror and start making a couple pars and those key bogey putts. I appreciate all the feedback i am getting on the concerns of sandbaggers or cheaters  in my league.

[zeg]

I guess it depends on the course.  18 handicappers shoot below 90 with some regularity at my home course.  In tournaments, the flight that typically 14+ is in plays from the blues, which are ~6300 yards, 70.0/122.  So high 80s aren't out of the question.  If the 18 handicap shot an 89 in a U.S. Open challenge, then I'd be surprised.  But of course, there are many courses in between mine and Congressional.

Yeah, I was a 36.4 (i.e., at the limit) with about a dozen 18-hole rounds tracked and I shot a 98 when we played your course (assuming you're talking about Rancho). That was a surprisingly good round and did pull me down off the 36.4 rail, but I hit a plateau at about 32 for the next few months at least... Now I'm down to a 26 and I routinely break 45 for 9 holes on my home course (which is short and not too difficult). I think the lesson here is that comparing scores between courses isn't a good way to communicate: 18 handicappers don't hit any particular score, they hit a particular differential. Played a new 9-hole course today and my result was very relevant to this discussion. Par on holes 2, 3, 4, and 5, bogey on 7, 8, and 9. Took an 11 on the first hole (basically, ESC because I took a drop after hitting my third tee shot OB in exactly the same spot, didn't want to lose all my balls on the first hole) and an 8 on the 6th....... Yay inconsistency!

[bosoxfan]

I disagree that this is blatant sandbagging.  As an 18 that means the guy's usual score is 90 (or thereabouts).  His opening round was close to his number and his 82 could easily have been the result of a good round.   Mid-cappers are by definition consistantly inconsistant.  All it takes for a mid-capper is a couple of lucky breaks and something in their swing to click and they can easily shoot in the low 80's.

The handicap system isn't perfect but it works pretty well especially when you play in flights.  After all aren't tournaments supposed to be won by the person who busts out a career round?

This is a very inaccurate statement. An 18, if playing a course with a slope of 113, will while playing his best shoot 90 (par 72). The USGA handicap system is structured to reflect the players potential, not their usual score. btw - check the slope of the courses you play. I'm typically playing from tees in the 120 - 135 range which brings that potential even further from par. I agree it is very unlikely for an 18 to go out in a tournament and shoot 89 followed by an 82. I'd like to know the rating/slope of the tees they played. Tough to call him out - but he's brought on some serious attention. I've been a 15-17 for the last few years, and shot 81, 82, and 82 for my best three scores. I typically had a good day posting an 85 or 86. I also agree with the statement about a lot of players not aware of ESC (it's based on your course handicap not your index - do you know your course handicap at the courses/tees you play??) which establishes invalid indices. The system isn't perfect - I use it primarily for seeing improvement in my own game. Having vastly different golfers use it to even the playing field probably doesn't work great - hence "flights" in tournaments and different tee boxes played from. It probably does really suck for match play between vastly different golfers - mid to highs do typically struggle from lack of consistency and can jump from a par train to a triple bogey like it's no big thing.

[zeg]

[This is a very inaccurate statement. An 18, if playing a course with a slope of 113, will while playing his best shoot 90 (par 72). The USGA handicap system is structured to reflect the players potential, not their usual score. btw - check the slope of the courses you play. I'm typically playing from tees in the 120 - 135 range which brings that potential even further from par. I agree it is very unlikely for an 18 to go out in a tournament and shoot 89 followed by an 82. I'd like to know the rating/slope of the tees they played. Tough to call him out - but he's brought on some serious attention. I've been a 15-17 for the last few years, and shot 81, 82, and 82 for my best three scores. I typically had a good day posting an 85 or 86.

While true that the handicap is intended to represent "potential," a golfer should play to it about 25% of the time if he's got a steady handicap index. In the 113 slope example, the 89 should not raise any eyebrows at all. The 82 is less likely, and to be fair, it's unlikely that a course is rated 72 and has a slope of 113. At least out here, every course I've seen that has a rating at its par also has a rather high slope. But still, the 89 is probably only a couple strokes better than a net par. Your latter suggestion gets it right, IMO. Anyone can have a freak good round, and without further evidence of sandbagging, I think it's not crazy to believe someone can have a very good round followed by a freak good round. Even if he routinely plays better in tournaments, that doesn't imply sandbagging because some people do honestly rise to the occasion and play better when there's a little pressure and something on the line. This is why there is a procedure for reducing handicaps for exceptional tournament play rather than a rule disqualifying players who put together a few great rounds. But, it'd be prudent to keep a closer eye on this guy's scores to verify that he is playing on the level.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by SVTGolfer

I was an 18 for a long time and if it shot below 95 I was having a stellar day! And it was not just one round, it was two rounds back to back that were under his apparent handicap. The handicap system is not exact I realize that, but most people with high handicaps are severely inconsistent, I know I was. I mean come on, Im lower than an 18 and ive never shot an 82! Especially in a tournament, and a final round of a tournament. He was baggin…

If you struggled to shoot better than 95 as an 18, then I'd question the legitimacy of your handicap.  Sounds like you had a vanity cap, since the system is structured to allow a player to shoot at or better than his handicap 25% of the time.  If you run across this guy 2 or 3 more times with a similar result, then you may have a legitimate complaint.  Until then just chalk it up to a list of possibles.

[mihi4]

Originally Posted by Fraser

When my brother and I were at boarding school we were accidental sandbaggers. The club we were at would only let your handicap be adjusted if you were competing in a tournament at the club. Well since we'd not be playing at the club for months on end our handicap would remain unchanged, even though we'd go and practice on the grounds at school quite often. As a result when we entered the Junior Championship, one of the first summer tournaments we'd often shoot well under our handicaps, one year my brother played very well before you take into account the fact he was an accidental sandbagger and shot net 55 and net 58 over the 36 holes that day (par 69 course). Given everyone's reactions and what they were saying throughout the day I'm surprised he wasn't slow clapped or booed collecting his trophy...not much we could do about it, pretty much everyone else in the junior section went to the state schools and played regularly at the clubs. As a result of that effort my bro's handicap was slashed 9 strokes in one hit!

That's completely the same situation that happened to me.

Here in Austria your hcp only get's adjusted based on your tournament rounds. Since I didn't have the time to play 18-hole rounds the last 2 years because of work, I wasn't able to play in tournaments.

But I did a lot of practice and got quite a lot of 1hour-9hole-par3-course rounds in, which helped a lot with my iron game.

So I played 3 tournaments last week with my hcp of 27.7 (as you might have read in my thread), shot 93 and 46 points in the first one, went down to 23.

Next day was at an easier course and I had a great day, shot 83, 48 net points and had my hcp adjusted to 18.6.

The 3rd tournament I shot 89 and no adjustment to my hcp.

Often it's the system, not the player.

BTW, here in Austria, for most of the people, the hdc is a status symbol, so there are much more vanity-baggers then sandbaggers around.

greetings

michi

[case31]

It's amazing how few golfers actually know how the handicap system works.  I hear from so many people, "I usually shoot 81/82, so I'm a 10 or 11 handicap.  Uh no, you're more like a 6 or a 7.  Yet so many people think that's the way handicaps are calculated, they let it go.

Two perfect sandbagging examples:

My dad used to work with a guy who would massage his handicap so it would not go down.  If he was playing "poorly", he would finish the round and turn in his score.  However, if he started off with some pars and maybe even a birdie, he would claim that he didn't have time for 18 and would "go to the range".  He would then want to get in on the weekend game, but would get no takers because his handicap was like 5 shots too high.

Another time I was playing in a two-man team tournament.  We advanced to the finals where we faced to guys who each had a "14 handicap".  I put that in quotes because they could shape shots, spin bunker shots with ease, and made putts from everywhere.  After getting our butts handed to us, we looked back at their previous matches, and they blew through everyone breaking 80 almost every round.

[joepro23]

Originally Posted by case31

It's amazing how few golfers actually know how the handicap system works.  I hear from so many people, "I usually shoot 81/82, so I'm a 10 or 11 handicap.  Uh no, you're more like a 6 or a 7.  Yet so many people think that's the way handicaps are calculated, they let it go.

Two perfect sandbagging examples:

My dad used to work with a guy who would massage his handicap so it would not go down.  If he was playing "poorly", he would finish the round and turn in his score.  However, if he started off with some pars and maybe even a birdie, he would claim that he didn't have time for 18 and would "go to the range".  He would then want to get in on the weekend game, but would get no takers because his handicap was like 5 shots too high.

Another time I was playing in a two-man team tournament.  We advanced to the finals where we faced to guys who each had a "14 handicap".  I put that in quotes because they could shape shots, spin bunker shots with ease, and made putts from everywhere.  After getting our butts handed to us, we looked back at their previous matches, and they blew through everyone breaking 80 almost every round.

So true. Beginners have a hard time with the handicap concept until it is explained to them clearly. Also, even people who do have handicaps neglect posting all of their rounds, many 9-hole scores, and posting rounds over 13 holes (after filling in the rest of the holes according to handicap). People also struggle with or forget about ESC.

Even if people are diligently and accurately posting, there will still be problems. It is not a perfect system. A 12-18 hdcp has a much better chance at beating their handicap than a low handicapper. It is just purely a numbers game. If you put a 2 hdcp up against a 12 hdcp...the 12 has a MUCH better chance at breaking 80 than the 2 has at breaking 70. When one of these mid-cappers has a great day, and breaks 80, I am basically screwed, since I have only broken 70 a couple times.

[deasy55]

I was playing a 15 handicap today in our clubs matchplay championship. I lost on the 14th....he was 9 shots better than his handicap after 14 holes

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by joepro23

So true. Beginners have a hard time with the handicap concept until it is explained to them clearly. Also, even people who do have handicaps neglect posting all of their rounds, many 9-hole scores, and posting rounds over 13 holes (after filling in the rest of the holes according to handicap). People also struggle with or forget about ESC.

Even if people are diligently and accurately posting, there will still be problems. It is not a perfect system. A 12-18 hdcp has a much better chance at beating their handicap than a low handicapper. It is just purely a numbers game. If you put a 2 hdcp up against a 12 hdcp...the 12 has a MUCH better chance at breaking 80 than the 2 has at breaking 70. When one of these mid-cappers has a great day, and breaks 80, I am basically screwed, since I have only broken 70 a couple times.

This is why properly run stroke tournaments are flighted, so that 2 cappers are never put up against 15's.  And why properly run match tournaments always play off the lower handicap, so that the higher capper doesn't get strokes where he shouldn't need them given the difference in their handicaps.