Question about a rule...

[GernGolfs]

At one of my local courses two holes run side-by-side - one going north and then the next one coming right back south. They are, to say the least, a little bit tight. The rough between the two holes is actually shared by both. So, here is the situation and my question:

I was on the 4th hole and pushed it a little into the shared rough on the right. I saw the area where my ball went but could not see the ball. There are absolutely no hazards or anything else that could cause a lost ball. At the same time my ball was in the center area, another group came up the 5th and, while I saw them searching in the general area of where my ball went, I did not see any one of them either hit or pick up my ball. For the record my balls are always marked with what I call the "bowling ball fingers look"; three black dots that look like bowling ball finger holes that surround the logo. I almost always play Callaway balls by the way.

So, anyway (and you can probably see where this is going) after the last person in my group tees off we head out only to find just three of our four balls. Mine was MIA and nowhere to be found. As I said there are no trees, bushes, any water, or anything else that could possibly cause a lost ball. This hole is known for sharing that center area and most golfers know better than to just pick up balls in the area.

Is this a penalty for me? I took the penalty, against my will by the way, and dropped another ball in the general area where we knew my ball had ended up. Because there was skins on the line, since noone was sure of the ruling I took the hit so to speak.

The irony is, because everyone "always" knows better than to pick up balls in this area, I did not whistle when I saw the other group in the area. I just naturally figured that they too had hit one into the shared zone. It was only when I got down there that I learned, the hard way, that my ball had probably been picked up. (Had they played mine I should have found one of theirs which never happened)

What's the ruling on this one?

In my humble, this is yet another rules difference between we common golfers and those who make a living at it. They have dozens of spotters, hundreds of fans, and television cameras to assure that nothing like this ever happens to them. But we, on the other hand, are left to fin for ourselves, count on the honesty of the others sharing the course with us, and hope for the best. I just cannot imagine that I was actually supposed to take a penalty when there was NO chance that the ball was anywhere other than in its new owner's pocket.

Thanks in advance!

[B-Con]

The other golfers are an outside agency, and if one of them plays your ball it is the same (from your perspective) as if a dog picked it up and ran off with it. You do not incur any penalties if your ball is moved while at rest by an outside agency and you simply play a ball from the same spot as the original. This is [url=http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Rule-18/]rule 18.1[/url]. However, you must be virtually [i]certain[/i] that an outside agency is to blame -- which basically means that the laws of physics do not allow for any other explanation. It's very easy to lose a ball in the rough. Even in a very small area of rough it's relatively easy to lose a ball. Since you don't know where the ball landed exactly, you probably have at least 100 square yards to look for the ball -- possibly even 300 -- and depending on how dense the rough is you may not be able to assert that the ball [i]could not[/i] be in that area. If you and your partners all readily agree that there is unquestioningly no ball to be found anywhere near the appropriate area, then you can probably assume they played your ball. Where do you play from? You're supposed to replay it from the original spot, but you don't know that spot. My guess would be that you are to drop as closely as possible to the most likely spot your ball was because I can't think of anything else that would make sense.

[Fourputt]

By the rules it is a lost ball and the correct procedure is to return to the tee and play again.

[zeg]

What Fourputt said.  The clincher is that you never actually saw it, so even if it seems unlikely, you have no evidence that it was moved by an outside agency.  "Known or virtually certain" is a very strict requirement. There could be a hole in the ground somewhere in the area that it's sitting in, it could be in a little patch of deep grass, or you could have been looking in the wrong place.  Even if none of these is likely, you can't meet the requirements of the rules with an assumption.

If you'd seen the ball come to rest, you might be able to make a case that you know or are virtually certain that it had been played or moved by an outside agency.

And, with respect to the injustice, it really doesn't matter that the pros have often have more eyes to look for their balls unless you're playing against them.  The guys you're playing against are all in the same boat as you, so no one has an advantage from this.

[Shorty]

Originally Posted by B-Con

The other golfers are an outside agency, and if one of them plays your ball it is the same (from your perspective) as if a dog picked it up and ran off with it. You do not incur any penalties if your ball is moved while at rest by an outside agency and you simply play a ball from the same spot as the original. This is rule 18.1.

But that's not what happened. That's what he thinks probably happened.

Unfortunately, he's back at the tee playing three.  Drives you nuts, but that's golf.

[Zeph]

27-1/2.5 Lost Ball Treated as Moved by Outside Agency in Absence of Knowledge or Virtual Certainty to That Effect

Q. A player who is unable to find his ball treats it as moved by an outside agency, rather than lost, in the absence of knowledge or virtual certainty to that effect. Accordingly, he drops a ball where he thinks his original ball came to rest (Rule 18-1) and plays it, rather than taking the stroke-and-distance penalty for a lost ball (Rule 27-1). What is the ruling?

A. In the absence of knowledge or virtual certainty that the ball had been moved by an outside agency, the player was required to put another ball into play under Rule 27-1. In playing the ball dropped under Rule 18-1, the player played from a wrong place.

In match play, he incurred a penalty of loss of hole (Rule 20-7b).

In stroke play, he incurred the stroke-and-distance penalty prescribed by Rule 27-1 and an additional penalty of two strokes for a breach of that Rule (Rule 20-7c). Because the breach was a serious one, he was subject to disqualification unless he corrected the error as provided in the second paragraph of Rule 20-7c.

[GernGolfs]

Thanks everyone for the replies. As one poster said, that's golf. (could not put it better myself)

The irony is that we had a little disagreement about another shot on another hole. From about 100 yards out one player hit another player's ball. The ball that was on the green wasn't any more and the second ball stayed. We looked it up and replaced the first ball as close as we could get it but therein lay the disagreement. None of us was certain where to place it. We had only a vague idea and a difference of only a couple of feet on this particular hole was going to mean the difference between a straight uphill putt versus one that was going to break hard from left to right. I am afraid that placing the ball back in its original position was the center of the problem. One golfer insisted that it "must have been where the second ball now was". Myself and the other golfer both thought that it was about 5 feet from this position and in a position where the putt was actually easier.

Does anyone have any suggestions on how best to settle such a disagreement? In the end we just used our best guess, placed ball one into a sort of neutral position, and everyone was happy when in the end both players made par.

Thanks again!

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by GernGolfs

Thanks everyone for the replies. As one poster said, that's golf. (could not put it better myself)

The irony is that we had a little disagreement about another shot on another hole. From about 100 yards out one player hit another player's ball. The ball that was on the green wasn't any more and the second ball stayed. We looked it up and replaced the first ball as close as we could get it but therein lay the disagreement. None of us was certain where to place it. We had only a vague idea and a difference of only a couple of feet on this particular hole was going to mean the difference between a straight uphill putt versus one that was going to break hard from left to right. I am afraid that placing the ball back in its original position was the center of the problem. One golfer insisted that it "must have been where the second ball now was". Myself and the other golfer both thought that it was about 5 feet from this position and in a position where the putt was actually easier.

Does anyone have any suggestions on how best to settle such a disagreement? In the end we just used our best guess, placed ball one into a sort of neutral position, and everyone was happy when in the end both players made par.

Thanks again!

You simply have to make your best estimate in that case.  Nothing else you can do.

[zeg]

Yep.  I think there's a decision related to that that says in a case like this where it's impossible to know, you should take an average lie in the approximate area---not the best and not the worst---to best satisfy equity.

[Ignorant]

Originally Posted by zeg

Yep.  I think there's a decision related to that that says in a case like this where it's impossible to know, you should take an average lie in the approximate area---not the best and not the worst---to best satisfy equity.

You are exactly right, this is it:

18-1/5  Ball Stolen by Outside Agency from Unknown Spot

Q. At a par-3 hole, part of the green and the adjoining area cannot be seen from the tee. In this unseen area are a bunker, fairway and a dry water hazard.

A player plays towards this obscured area and cannot tell where the ball comes to rest. When the players are near the green, they see a boy running away with a ball in his hand. The boy throws the ball back and the player identifies it as his ball.

The player is unable to determine from where to play his next stroke under Rule 18-1 . He does not know whether the ball was on the green, on the fairway or in one of the hazards.

How should he proceed?

A. As it was impossible to know where the ball should have been replaced under Rule 18-1 , the player should, in equity (Rule 1-4) , drop the ball in an area which was neither the most, nor the least, favorable of the various areas where it was equally possible that the ball originally lay.

[Clambake]

Originally Posted by GernGolfs

Does anyone have any suggestions on how best to settle such a disagreement? In the end we just used our best guess, placed ball one into a sort of neutral position, and everyone was happy when in the end both players made par.

There is a very simple solution - it's called a rule book.    It's small and fits easily into any bag, and costs less than 1/2 of that ball you couldn't find.

[zeg]

Originally Posted by Clambake

There is a very simple solution - it's called a rule book.    It's small and fits easily into any bag, and costs less than 1/2 of that ball you couldn't find.

This is true, it costs about $3 at my local golf shop and is worth having.  However, this particular case is one that a rule book doesn't directly answer since it relies on Equity, and therefore an interpretation.  You'd have to have the book of decisions to answer it authoritatively in the field.

It sounds to me like the OP reached the correct conclusion, though.  Not too surprising, because it's a pretty commonsense decision.

[B-Con]

What Fourputt said.  The clincher is that you never actually saw it, so even if it seems unlikely, you have no evidence that it was moved by an outside agency.  "Known or virtually certain" is a very strict requirement. There could be a hole in the ground somewhere in the area that it's sitting in, it could be in a little patch of deep grass, or you could have been looking in the wrong place.  Even if none of these is likely, you can't meet the requirements of the rules with an assumption.

If you'd seen the ball come to rest, you might be able to make a case that you know or are virtually certain that it had been played or moved by an outside agency.

And, with respect to the injustice, it really doesn't matter that the pros have often have more eyes to look for their balls unless you're playing against them.  The guys you're playing against are all in the same boat as you, so no one has an advantage from this.

I took his statement: [quote name="GernGolfs" url="/forum/thread/46212/question-about-a-rule#post_600372"]I saw the area where my ball went but could not see the ball.[/quote] to mean he saw it land, but couldn't see the ball in its resting position. But it was an ambiguous statement.

[zeg]

Originally Posted by B-Con

I took his statement:

Quote:

Originally Posted by GernGolfs

I saw the area where my ball went but could not see the ball.

to mean he saw it land, but couldn't see the ball in its resting position. But it was an ambiguous statement.

I think you have to have seen it at rest to be certain to the required degree.  But cases like these are hard to "litigate" over the net, since the rule requires you to take into consideration the entire situation, so it's hard to reach a sure conclusion from a few sentence description.

[Zeph]

I believe the USGA got an app for smart phones. As long as you got your phone in the bag, you got all the rules and current decisions. You can try to figure out a ruling while playing, if you got the time. Or while walking to the ball on the next hole. A rules book is good to have in any event, but I can imagine a rules app may work better if you are searching for things. Especially decisions.