One Plane vs. Stack and Tilt

[CuppedTin]

You are not making any sense man, my hips naturally slide forward 5-6 inches on the backswing as I straighten the rear leg to load up the lead inside leg, correct? The hips should never slide on the downswing... Maybe you are misunderstanding my earlier statements.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by CuppedTin

You are not making any sense man, my hips naturally slide forward 5-6 inches on the backswing as I straighten the rear leg to load up the lead inside leg, correct? The hips should never slide on the downswing... Maybe you are misunderstanding my earlier statements.

I disagree.

The hips should slide in the downswing and, ideally, not in the backswing .

If they slide forward in the backswing you're failing to use one of the levers available to you (extension to flexion in the downswing).

[CuppedTin]

How, the hips have to slide forward 5-6 inches during the backswing. You can compare my lower body to the best S&T; swings you can find and I guarantee you that I am in exactly the same positions they are throughout the swing. During the backswing when the weight is loaded/preloaded on the front side and the rear leg is straightened, there is only one place for the hips to go, forward 5-6 inches, right? How can you get the hips to stay stationary during the backswing and push them forward during the downswing while straightening the lead leg at the same time?

[CuppedTin]

I disagree. The hips should slide in the downswing and, ideally, not in the backswing. If they slide forward in the backswing you're failing to use one of the levers available to you (extension to flexion in the downswing).

Ok, I guess you are actually starting to make sense, which would explain why no matter how hard I squeeze my butt checks I still can't get good extension to flexation on the down swing. If you notice in these pictures you will see that by straightening my rear leg in the backswing I am bringing my rear hip way in and my hips push toward the target... There is a perfect group of lighter colored leaves right in front of my left hip that make it really easy to see the distance my hips slide in the backswing and downswing. [IMG]http://tapatalk.com/mu/c6e4e018-4023-b8e7.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://tapatalk.com/mu/c6e4e018-403e-451d.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://tapatalk.com/mu/c6e4e018-4058-dec0.jpg[/IMG]

[iacas]

I feel like I'm getting punked.

Originally Posted by CuppedTin

How, the hips have to slide forward 5-6 inches during the backswing. You can compare my lower body to the best S&T; swings you can find and I guarantee you that I am in exactly the same positions they are throughout the swing.

The hips don't slide forward 5-6 inches on the backswing. Unless you're defining "backswing" as "downswing..."

And just for the hell of it...

And to be clear, none of this is to say your swing is "bad" or anything. And feel isn't real. But no, the hips don't move in the backswing. They turn, they don't slide.

Originally Posted by CuppedTin

During the backswing when the weight is loaded/preloaded on the front side and the rear leg is straightened, there is only one place for the hips to go, forward 5-6 inches, right?

No. And the weight doesn't really go anywhere in the backswing. It stays fairly centered. You might feel more pressure left than you're used to, but ideally the weight stays pretty well centered.

Originally Posted by CuppedTin

How can you get the hips to stay stationary during the backswing and push them forward during the downswing while straightening the lead leg at the same time?

As some have said, you don't straighten the left leg from the top of the downswing. The left knee drives forward, the hips drive forward, and the knee straightens later, but not from the top of the backswing.

[Phil McGleno]

Originally Posted by CuppedTin

Ok, I guess you are actually starting to make sense

Gratitude, CuppedTin — there's my chuckle for the day! ICAS is one of the top 20 SnT guys in the country and possibly the world. If he says something about it I'd listen if I had half a mind.

[CuppedTin]

Originally Posted by iacas

I feel like I'm getting punked.

The hips don't slide forward 5-6 inches on the backswing. Unless you're defining "backswing" as "downswing..."

And just for the hell of it...

And to be clear, none of this is to say your swing is "bad" or anything. And feel isn't real. But no, the hips don't move in the backswing. They turn, they don't slide.

OK, First off I would never try and punk you... I just feel I am dangerously close on this.

On my back swing if I turn my front knee in towards the ball and straighten my rear leg then It automatically pushes my rear hip back 4-5 inches and forward 5-6 inches. Remember I am left handed, so the sensation is almost as if I am backing my butt up to the right and sitting on a stool.

Now, this feels awkward as heck but it actually puts me in the exact position as the player you are comparing me to if I keep my front knee from going in on the backswing and it also prevents my hips from sliding back and towards the target on the backswing as I straighten the rear leg.

So is it OK to not let the front knee go in towards the ball on the backswing? Leave it in the position as the guy pictured above?

[CuppedTin]

I'm waiting on you Iacas... Get off the practice range and reply to your peers! :-)

[iacas]

Originally Posted by CuppedTin

On my back swing if I turn my front knee in towards the ball and straighten my rear leg then It automatically pushes my rear hip back 4-5 inches and forward 5-6 inches. Remember I am left handed, so the sensation is almost as if I am backing my butt up to the right and sitting on a stool.

The point is that you shouldn't "automatically" do this. The hips going forward like this is a draw piece, and if you want to hit bigger draws, you're free to do so as long as the hips continue forward on the downswing . It's not ideal, but Troy Matteson does it (hips forward, hips forward in both backswing and downswing). Troy hits the ball hard but plays one of the biggest pushes and biggest draws with his driver.

Your video jumps around way too much to be terribly useful (get closer, use a tripod), but you can tell from this that not only do your hips go forward, but your head goes forward a little bit as well.

Your hips move forward in the backswing.

Originally Posted by CuppedTin

So is it OK to not let the front knee go in towards the ball on the backswing? Leave it in the position as the guy pictured above?

Not really, no. It might also be lower on your list of priorities, and not #1.

The guy in the picture above makes a centered turn. Part of the reason is that he understands that flexing his front knee over his front foot - and not in towards the golf ball - allows his hips to turn in a circle without them sliding around.

Again, it may not be #1, but your legwork/kneework should be cleaned up at some point. You can make a centered pivot and not have your hips going forward during the backswing.

Do it in three parts. Take your address position. Stand up. Rotate. Tilt left. Make sure the lead knee is pointing out and forwards, not back towards the ball and that your weight distribution is about the same as it was at setup. Voilà.

[CuppedTin]

Originally Posted by iacas

The point is that you shouldn't "automatically" do this. The hips going forward like this is a draw piece, and if you want to hit bigger draws, you're free to do so as long as the hips continue forward on the downswing. It's not ideal, but Troy Matteson does it (hips forward, hips forward in both backswing and downswing). Troy hits the ball hard but plays one of the biggest pushes and biggest draws with his driver.

Your video jumps around way too much to be terribly useful (get closer, use a tripod), but you can tell from this that not only do your hips go forward, but your head goes forward a little bit as well.

Your hips move forward in the backswing.

Not really, no. It might also be lower on your list of priorities, and not #1.

The guy in the picture above makes a centered turn. Part of the reason is that he understands that flexing his front knee over his front foot - and not in towards the golf ball - allows his hips to turn in a circle without them sliding around.

Again, it may not be #1, but your legwork/kneework should be cleaned up at some point. You can make a centered pivot and not have your hips going forward during the backswing.

Do it in three parts. Take your address position. Stand up. Rotate. Tilt left. Make sure the lead knee is pointing out and forwards, not back towards the ball and that your weight distribution is about the same as it was at setup. Voilà.

I'm sorry about the sloppy video work, I will give my 5 year old daughter a good stern punishment for the bad videos. She has been my only video girl because my wife refuses to leave the tv with the bachlorette is on!

Ok, you talked earlier about and I quote "And to be clear, none of this is to say your swing is "bad" or anything. And feel isn't real." Again, you are exactly right my man. I have been over exageratting the front knee towards the ball on the backswing in order to get the right feel. Well, after your last post I was at the golf shop and was hitting on a simulator to kill time. Swinging a used Titleist with an x-65 Shaft I was at 117 mph and was carrying the ball 280-290 but was told that I had an extremely high backspin rate on the ball. I actually had an audience of about 6 people which made me feel pretty TigerLike (I'm kidding) (I'm cocky enough as it is without needing help from Tiger)... But anyhow, my point was that I did not focus on getting the "feel" of turning my knee in towards the ball, I just turned around a centered head and my hips naturally fired. This sounds stupid i'm sure, but I actually felt like my lower body and upper body were turning against each other. When I got to the top I did not even have to worry about my lead arm bend or going to far because at the top I felt like a wound spring...

[CuppedTin]

In all my babbling I guess I am trying to say that when I "try" to feel something I over exaggerate it. Instead of just trusting that it will happen naturally.

[CuppedTin]

EDIT: I just went back and it was 112-114 mph on 6 swings... Not 117 mph.

[Brakkus]

I read the main thread on Stack n Tilt and I like the concept as it seems simple to follow. God knows the golf swing is convoluted enough as it is. It shares common themes with the one plane swing,obviously the downswing is where it has its main differences. My only beef is directed to Mike who says it has the best of intentions a one plane swing. Do you feel sorry for all us one planets. I know you and Erik have great qualifications in teaching golf but I don't see SnT being superior to a one plane concept or any easier to learn and as regards weight forward your weight doesn't go back in a centered swing anyway. Like any swing concept you can cock it up whether it's one plane or SnT. The point is is it simple to repeat? I respectfully ask your opinion as I admire the help given on this board but I don't like the debunking of other swing theories. Surely if that is done you would need to have actually used it or taught it to say it's missing certain parts. Sorry Mike hope this doesn't come across as offensive not my intention

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Brakkus

I read the main thread on Stack n Tilt and I like the concept as it seems simple to follow. God knows the golf swing is convoluted enough as it is. It shares common themes with the one plane swing,obviously the downswing is where it has its main differences.

My only beef is directed to Mike who says it has the best of intentions a one plane swing. Do you feel sorry for all us one planets. I know you and Erik have great qualifications in teaching golf but I don't see SnT being superior to a one plane concept or any easier to learn and as regards weight forward your weight doesn't go back in a centered swing anyway. Like any swing concept you can cock it up whether it's one plane or SnT. The point is is it simple to repeat?

I respectfully ask your opinion as I admire the help given on this board but I don't like the debunking of other swing theories. Surely if that is done you would need to have actually used it or taught it to say it's missing certain parts. Sorry Mike hope this doesn't come across as offensive not my intention

Well.. seen this thread? :D http://thesandtrap.com/t/64993/weight-forward-using-swingcatalyst-and-sam-balance-lab-to-explain-pressure-throughout-the-swing/

[mvmac]

Originally Posted by Brakkus

I read the main thread on Stack n Tilt and I like the concept as it seems simple to follow. God knows the golf swing is convoluted enough as it is. It shares common themes with the one plane swing,obviously the downswing is where it has its main differences.

My only beef is directed to Mike who says it has the best of intentions a one plane swing. Do you feel sorry for all us one planets. I know you and Erik have great qualifications in teaching golf but I don't see SnT being superior to a one plane concept or any easier to learn and as regards weight forward your weight doesn't go back in a centered swing anyway. Like any swing concept you can cock it up whether it's one plane or SnT. The point is is it simple to repeat?

I respectfully ask your opinion as I admire the help given on this board but I don't like the debunking of other swing theories. Surely if that is done you would need to have actually used it or taught it to say it's missing certain parts. Sorry Mike hope this doesn't come across as offensive not my intention

No problem.  I'm assuming you're referring to my post from a year and a half ago (below).  And to be clear neither Erik or I are S&T; guys but have a high level of information on the pattern.  We don't agree with the weight going forward on the backswing and we have other disagreements with S&T.;  You mention not being able critiquing the One Plane info without having taught it or used the swing.  I've attended a Plane Truth school with Mike LaBauve and Jim.  Also my instructor my junior and senior years in college was a Hardy Level 1 instructor.

This thread is about the differences between S&T; and One Plane (Jim Hardy).  I still stand by what I posted.  Most important point is that Jim, when I did the school, taught the John Jacobs ball flight info, the backwards ball flight laws.  Getting into the swing, Jim advises that the right elbow be pulled "upward and backward in a piston like motion.  The up and back movement of the right elbow allows the left arm to cross over and swing tight against the front of the chest where it should remain throughout the completion of the backswing." From pages 41- 42 of The Plane Truth Master Class book.  From page 52, "The key fact in the backswing movement is that you must continue to move the right elbow upward and behind you, with the elbow joint reaching or even slightly behind the shirt seam of the side of your shirt".

This is his recommendation for the down swing,

I said in July '11 that "right elbow gets too far behind the shirt seam on the backswing and downswing, narrow radius, downswing is very rotary, "covering" the ball with your upper body".  I still agree with that.  I see too many bad golfer with flexed arms into the followthrough, that has some very negative effects on the geometry of the swing, especially for guys that already slice it.

The tour players are doing what Jim is demonstrating in the book. You don't see Kuchar or Molder moving the right elbow behind the shirt seam or having the right elbow up and back on the downswing.  I talked with Chris O'Connell at Riviera a few weeks ago and he's a good dude.  Obviously does great work with Kuchar.

Using these examples I'm not trying to"debunk" Hardy, just defending what I'm seeing.  I'm actually planning on doing a drill video and using Kuchar and his little "pick up" move he does on the takeaway and how it helps him not get the club head inside the hands.  S&T; and One Plane may have differences but the players like Kuchar, Molder and Pernice do demonstrate all 5 Keys.

Originally Posted by mvmac

This will give you a decent idea of the Hardy information.  S&T; and Hardy may seem similar but there are many difference.  Yes, both want the arms to work deep and shoulders turning steepish but, like iacas said, lack of extension, right elbow gets too far behind the shirt seam on the backswing and downswing, narrow radius, downswing is very rotary, "covering" the ball with your upper body.  Tend to produce low fades if you don't get enough weight forward.  Lots of good intentions but missing some important pieces imo.

[Brakkus]

Thankyou for your comprehensive answer and apologies for the assumptions on your experience. I try not force the elbows on the backswing and downswing rather relax them and allow them to bend as they will in a rotary based swing. So would it be a big leap for me to change and how would I benefit in the long run if I used for example a stack and tilt style of swing? To be truthful accuracy and consistency of contact need to be better than my current swing. I have Jim's first book and my swing is totally molded on that style.

[mvmac]

Originally Posted by Brakkus

So would it be a big leap for me to change and how would I benefit in the long run if I used for example a stack and tilt style of swing? To be truthful accuracy and consistency of contact need to be better than my current swing. I have Jim's first book and my swing is totally molded on that style.

Tough to say for sure since I haven't seen your swing.  I think you may be able to benefit from some 5 Simple Keys information . What is your typical miss?  What shot do you hate the most?

[Brakkus]

Originally Posted by mvmac

Tough to say for sure since I haven't seen your swing.  I think you may be able to benefit from some 5 Simple Keys information. What is your typical miss?  What shot do you hate the most?

My typical miss would be a slight cut high and right. I'm guessing here but if I don't rotate enough left then my club face is slightly open on the way through. If I get it really wrong I can hit a block straight flight out right. Myself I have found that I can't follow Hardy to the letter. I think the posture is way too bent over for me. I'm more bent over than a conventional 2 plane if that's the name were going to use.

Releasing hard from the top just isn't vital I find,so I build pace. I slowed my transition so I can reverse the gears. The whole concept of a rotary plane though is very easy to repeat. The bend or fold seems to happen naturally. You say the narrow radius isn't a good thing but surely the tighter circle puts greater centrugal force to the outer making the club faster. I went through a phase of chasing the ball DTL for a bit and I didn't strike as well,accuracy suffered and I hooked it too much due to being in to out.

I don't force the elbows up and back on either side but it is more natural allowing them to fold,as the speed of the swing creates that shape through my swing. To me practice will make it even more reliable. Perhaps one thing that I might add more permanently is to hang a slight bit of pressure into my left foot at address and then swing back this almost eliminates fat shots. I have always done this with 8 iron to wedges but this works really well with lower lofted irons too.

I did go and watch all the 5sk videos and I like the concept but I can't see at this point whether I want to build another swing with different movements now. I'm pretty positive that with deliberate practice I can only improve with what I have. I'm sure you would agree that If 5SK isn't executed properly then it's just as easy to hit a bad shot with any swing model. No system is fool proof because inherently we are flawed even if the mechanics are sound of which I have no doubt 5SK is. I see a lot of shared ideas there but how the arms work in the swing is where it conflicts I guess. Thankyou for taking the time to reply the technical info is something I find very interesting to read.