Club Declared "Out of Play" Prior to Start of Round

[jshots]

Originally Posted by tristanhilton85

I don't know what's with you and this tee thing but I'll try to explain it to you so it's clear... you can put your tee in front of the markers on the first hole, no penalty.  You can then put your ball on that tee, no penalty.  The reason that there is no penalty for this is that you haven't taken a stroke... if you leave the ball there, in front of the markers on the tee and then hit it from there you've now incurred a penalty for playing from the wrong spot; it wan't until you made the stroke that the round started and that is when you received the penalty, not when you stuck the tee in the ground.

lol you are talking like you are some type of rules guru... try to explain it to me so it's clear...

Its certainly not clear and you have yet to prove that it is any different.

When you made your first stroke, you either put your ball in the correct spot or you didn't, you either declared your 15th club out of play or  you didn't.

[sacm3bill]

Originally Posted by sean_miller

Can I give my opponent advice before we tee off? Anything more than a rules heads up, like "Dude, you're about to tee up in front of the markers with your 15th club."

Good point. If you give someone advice on how to hit a shot or what club to hit before you tee off on the first hole, I would think you would indeed incur a penalty even though the round has not started (at least, it has not according to the definition being used in this thread - that of hitting the first tee shot.)

[ochmude]

Originally Posted by sean_miller

Can I give my opponent advice before we tee off? Anything more than a rules heads up, like "Dude, you're about to tee up in front of the markers with your 15th club."

I would say yes, you can.

8-1/18  Player Who Has Not Yet Played Seeks Advice from Player Who Has Finished Round

Q. May a player about to start his round seek advice as to clubs used at various holes from a player who has just finished?

A. Yes. Rule 8-1 applies only during the play of a round.

[jshots]

Originally Posted by ochmude

I would say yes, you can.

What if both players are about to start?

[sacm3bill]

Originally Posted by ochmude

I would say yes, you can.

I think you misread Sean's post in the same way I initially did...

Edit: Oops, I didn't read your full response - you actually did understand Sean's question. Still not sure if it's legal on the first tee right before the start of a round though...

[ochmude]

Originally Posted by jshots

What if both players are about to start?

Absolutely.  Again, I don't work for the USGA and am not a rules official, so this is just my opinion.  But as I see it, you can tee up in the middle of the fairway with a Polara ball and a Hammer driver, start your backswing, whisper an incantation like Harry Potter as you begin your downswing, instantaneously transform your ball and driver into conformance while simultaneously teleporting yourself into the tee box, and as long as you pull all that off before your clubface makes contact with the ball, you are golden.

[tristanhilton85]

Originally Posted by jshots

lol you are talking like you are some type of rules guru... try to explain it to me so it's clear...

Its certainly not clear and you have yet to prove that it is any different.

When you made your first stroke, you either put your ball in the correct spot or you didn't, you either declared your 15th club out of play or  you didn't.

Look, I'm not a rules guru but honestly I don't know what is unclear about this.  It's pretty black and white to me...

Hell, even if the round "starts" when you arrive at the first tee box and not when you actually hit your first ball, if you discover you have 15 clubs and declare one "out of play" you're still too late and get a penalty for that hole for having too many clubs.  The point isn't when the round actually starts, the point is that you cannot declare a club out of play before the start of play because at that point the rules have no bearing on the situation; once the rules are in place it is too late.

All this seems pretty crystal clear to me, if you can't see it or understand it then I don't know what else to tell you; I guess your just too dense.

As far as asking for or giving advice at the first tee before the round has actually begun, I don't know about that and it's a good question... that's why I say maybe the round begins once you arrive at the first tee...  and before jshots gets there, even if the round begins upon arrival at the first tee you can still tee in front of the markers and so long as you don't make a stroke at the ball there isn't a penalty, if you do then it'd be the penalty for playing from the wrong spot.

[rustyredcab]

Lighten up. If there is a practical reason that the guy should not take time to put the club in his car, locker room, side of the path... and you're out for your friendly game, be decent and let the guy "declare" a club is not in his bag. On the other hand, if this is a serious match, make the guy leave the club. Or you can be a real swell guy and let him tee off and then call him on it.

This discussion about when the round starts makes me think that my friendship with some of you would stop on the tee before a ball is hit. :)

[jshots]

Originally Posted by tristanhilton85

Look, I'm not a rules guru but honestly I don't know what is unclear about this.  It's pretty black and white to me...

Hell, even if the round "starts" when you arrive at the first tee box and not when you actually hit your first ball, if you discover you have 15 clubs and declare one "out of play" you're still too late and get a penalty for that hole for having too many clubs.  The point isn't when the round actually starts, the point is that you cannot declare a club out of play before the start of play because at that point the rules have no bearing on the situation; once the rules are in place it is too late.

All this seems pretty crystal clear to me, if you can't see it or understand it then I don't know what else to tell you; I guess your just too dense.

As far as asking for or giving advice at the first tee before the round has actually begun, I don't know about that and it's a good question... that's why I say maybe the round begins once you arrive at the first tee...  and before jshots gets there, even if the round begins upon arrival at the first tee you can still tee in front of the markers and so long as you don't make a stroke at the ball there isn't a penalty, if you do then it'd be the penalty for playing from the wrong spot.

lol too dense? I understand your argument perfectly well and have from the beginning I just think that maybe the rules don't specify a few things very well. You are too ignorant to realize that it isn't black and white and you just admitted it when you commented on the round maybe starting when you arrive on the first tee. You said maybe, admitting that you don't actually have any idea whats going on.

If the round were to start when you arrive at the first tee, the first hole doesn't start until you make your first stroke, or does it, or is it neither of the above? It doesn't tell you in the rules, its not black and white, its not clear. Which ever one of these it is completely changes whether you receive a penalty or not for declaring a club out of play. Therefore its not black and white its not clear and I'm not dense and you are ignorant.

[tristanhilton85]

Originally Posted by rustyredcab

Lighten up. If there is a practical reason that the guy should not take time to put the club in his car, locker room, side of the path... and you're out for your friendly game, be decent and let the guy "declare" a club is not in his bag. On the other hand, if this is a serious match, make the guy leave the club. Or you can be a real swell guy and let him tee off and then call him on it.

This discussion about when the round starts makes me think that my friendship with some of you would stop on the tee before a ball is hit. :)

Might want to read all of the thread... I've said it before and for your sake I'll say it once again; between friends or in a casual round or whatever I could care less.  The whole point of this thread is the semantics of it; can you actually "declare" it out of play before the round and even what constitutes the start of play.  My point the last few posts is that the rules seem pretty clear on it and the decision referenced in the first post should take away any doubt and it is just confusing to me that somebody couldn't see this.

[tristanhilton85]

Originally Posted by jshots

lol too dense? I understand your argument perfectly well and have from the beginning I just think that maybe the rules don't specify a few things very well. You are too ignorant to realize that it isn't black and white and you just admitted it when you commented on the round maybe starting when you arrive on the first tee. You said maybe, admitting that you don't actually have any idea whats going on.

If the round were to start when you arrive at the first tee, the first hole doesn't start until you make your first stroke, or does it, or is it neither of the above? It doesn't tell you in the rules, its not black and white, its not clear. Which ever one of these it is completely changes whether you receive a penalty or not for declaring a club out of play. Therefore its not black and white its not clear and I'm not dense and you are ignorant.

Look, read the whole post, whether or not the round begins once you get to the first tee, you take your first stroke, or whatever doesn't matter in this instance.  What matters is that you can't declare a club "out of play" before it has started, and once play has started you will have incurred the penalty. There is no instance in which you say "hey, I got 15 clubs, this one is out of play" and not get a penalty because it's either in one of two situations; either (1) play has not yet begun and therefore the rules don't apply and declaration means nothing or (2) play has begun and you've breeched the rules.  If you are in the first situation you might as well go stick it in the car real quick and if you are in the second you should probably pick a club you haven't used to declare out of play so you only get the stroke penalty (or loss of the hole in match play) instead of being DQ'd.

If you'd read the decision one more time it says:

4-4c/1  Excess Club Declared Out of Play Before Round and Placed on Floor of Golf Cart

Q. Before the start of a round, a player discovers that there are 15 clubs in his golf bag. He declares one of the clubs out of play, removes it from his bag, places it on the floor of his golf cart and begins the round. Is the player subject to penalty?

A. Yes, for starting the round with more than 14 clubs. Rule 4-4c has to do with declaring an excess club out of play on discovery of a breach after a round has started. There is nothing in the Rules to permit carrying, during a round, an excess club declared out of play before the round.

So it's right there, nothing in the rule book says that you can carry a club that you had declared out of play before the round; in other words no such declaration matters until the round has begun and once you can make such a declaration, play has already begun and you are assessed the appropriate penalty.

That seems pretty freakin' black and white to me.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by jshots

Yes this is exactly my point. You can put the ball wherever you like before your first stroke. Where you put it matters, as its part of the rules of golf as to where you are allowed to put the ball. In the same respect it is part of the rules that you are allowed to declare a club out of play an take a penalty for having it in your bag up to that point, so why does this magically not matter when where you put your ball on the first tee does.

Come on guy, quit picking at nits. It only matters where the ball is teed when you make a stroke at it.  It also only matters how many clubs are in your bag after that first stroke is made  That is when the stipulated round begins. Until then both are irrelevant.  When the stroke is made, then the ball is in play and the rules become relevant.  It's unnecessary to make a special statement defining that moment because for anyone with normal English comprehension, that moment is obvious.

[tristanhilton85]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Come on guy, quit picking at nits.  It only matters where the ball is teed when you make a stroke at it.  It also only matters how many clubs are in your bag after that first stroke is made  That is when the stipulated round begins.  Until then both are irrelevant.  When the stroke is made, then the ball is in play and the rules become relevant.  It's unnecessary to make a special statement defining that moment because for anyone with normal English comprehension, that moment is obvious.

Thank you.  The only reason I even brought it up (whether it was when the first ball was put into play or arrival on the tee box or whatever) was because of the question of asking for advice at the first hole before anybody had hit their shot.

[sacm3bill]

Originally Posted by tristanhilton85

Thank you.  The only reason I even brought it up (whether it was when the first ball was put into play or arrival on the tee box or whatever) was because of the question of asking for advice at the first hole before anybody had hit their shot.

And I don't think that's been answered definitively. If it's legal, that would be strange and appear to be against the spirit of the rule (why is advice ok on the first tee but no other?) If illegal, than it's an example of where you *can* break a rule before the round has started. Or we need a clearer definition on when the round is started. Regardless, seems the rules need to clarify this scenario.  I know I'm nit picking, but we're always saying "The rulebook is big [and the Decisions are numerous] because it needs to cover every eventuality" - yet this does not seem to be covered.

[ohiolefty]

Isn't this the Ian Woosnam issue from a few years back? Once you hit the tee ball, there had better only be 14 sticks in your bag.

In a casual round, though, it's no biggie. And if you're playing for money - usually we play skins or some version of match play...so I'd think having the offending party forfeit any holes won or tied with 15 holes would be appropriate.

[jshots]

Yeah to be honest I don't really care and almost gaurantee I will never run into this problem. In fact before even seeing this post I had read about this Q and A a while back and knew the USGAs answer, it comes up as a question on a rules quiz.

In the end though I really think there are a lot of things that are unclear, that could possibly make it legal to declare a club out of play on the first tee. Like we've discussed, when does play start, when do the rules of golf apply. To the best of my knowledge the rules don't say much about those two things and maybe we are just making some obvious (or not) assumptions, which is why I came up with the counter argument to the OP in the first place.

Another question. Regardless of who is right here, do you think you should be able to declare a club out of play before the round has started on the first teebox? In my opinion you don't gain any unfair advantage in doing so, so I don't see why you shouldn't be able to.

[luu5]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

Good point. If you give someone advice on how to hit a shot or what club to hit before you tee off on the first hole, I would think you would indeed incur a penalty even though the round has not started (at least, it has not according to the definition being used in this thread - that of hitting the first tee shot.)

You can give information regarding rules, but not advice affecting the stroke. Which one it would be? Maybe casual mumbling regarding the maximum number of clubs in rules?

Quote:

"Advice" is any counsel or suggestion that could influence a player in determining his play, the choice of a club or the method of making a stroke.

Information on the Rules, distance or matters of public information, such as the position of hazards or the flagstick on the putting green, is not advice.

Dec 1-4/13 indicates that you are allowed to warn your fellow competitor about the breach of the rules.

[carpediem4300]

The big question here is what golfer deemed good enough turns up to a competition and tee's his ball forward of the markers being used that day?

For one there is usually a marshall on every tee, if not usually the first,

For two there is usually a brief on the rules of the day such as tee boxes, out of bounds, pick/clean/replace etc etc

I fail to understand how this has even entered the topic when the original question was regarding 15 clubs,...not ball position on the tee?