Don't believe Rules knowledge can help?

[Fisherdude]

Let's keep in mind that we are talking about declaring a ball unplayable under Rule 28, and then dropping and/or redropping under Rule 20-2c:

... 20C v states if the ball comes to rest by the conditions from which relief was taken it must be redropped...

That is correct.

However, if you read the list of those "conditions" you will find that ONLY THE FOLLOWING are listed: Rule 24. Rule 25. Rule 33. Rule 28 IS NOT LISTED. Therefore, Rule 20-2c(v) DOES NOT APPLY.

If you play the ball after it rolls back into the condition you also get another two shot penalty for playing from a wrong place rule 20-7ii

That is not correct.

Since you are NOT proceeding under 20-2c(v) because Rule 28 (Ball Unplayable) IS NOT listed, then you are NOT required by 20-7a(ii) to redrop. If you want to get technical, since the ball that rolled back into its original unplayable position was, without question, IN PLAY, then when you picked it up you incurred a one stroke penalty under Rule 18-2, (Ball at Rest Moved By Player, Partner, Caddie or Equipment), AND THE BALL MUST BE REPLACED. Back in its original position. Which would be back up against the fence. If you fail to replace the ball back in its original position, you will incur the General Penalty for breach of the Rule, which is two strokes. In another poorly understood technicality, while Rule 20-7 is indeed titled "Playing From a Wrong Place", and it does talk about a two stoke penalty for playing from a wrong place, in fact you are NEVER penalized under 20-7 for playing from a wrong place. You are ALWAYS penalized "under the applicable Rule". Please refer to the very first sentence in 20-7(a)(c). Which in this case would be Rule 18. While you may certainly disagree, this is correct. If you would like another opinion in order to feel more comfortable about the answer, I would urge you to ask the question of someone in the pro shop of your course. Keep in mind, however, that most PGA professionals have not had much in the area of formal Rules education. I'm not aware of one single Head Professional anywhere in my area who has attended even one joint four day PGA/USGA Rules of Golf Seminar. Next year will be my sixth. And I keep learning more, and understanding more, and getting more "ah-ha!" moments. Open to anyone, and highly, highly recommended, if you love the game.

[Fisherdude]

...

Woohoo!!

Gonna make me pull out the fat book, eh?? Decision 28/6.5 Player Deems Ball Unplayable a Second Time and Wishes to Proceed Under Stroke and Distance After Dropping a Ball Under Other Unplayable Option Q. A player plays a stroke from Point A to Point B. The player deems his ball unplayable and proceeds under either Rule 28b or c. After dropping under penalty of one stroke, the ball comes to rest at Point C. The player deems his ball unplayable for a second time and wishes to proceed under Rule 28a, playing from Point A. Is this permissible? A. Yes. The player may play from Point A because he did not make a stroke at the ball from either Point B or Point C. Point A was the spot from which the original ball was last played. The player would incur a total of two penalty strokes. So, yes, because he had not yet played a stroke on the ball in its unplayable position. Second drop ain't free, though. Total=2. Good question! Clay

[NM Golf]

Woohoo!!

Correct!!! Pretty good. Good to see another rules junkie on here. My wife thinks I am a freakin weirdo when I lay in bed and read The Rules of Golf. As far as the pros knowing the rules. Even thought they may not go to a USGA rules seminar, in order to become a class A professional they have to pass a pretty extensive rules test. The guys I work with know the rules very well.

[Fourputt]

Let's keep in mind that we are talking about declaring a ball unplayable under Rule 28, and then dropping and/or redropping under Rule 20-2c:

The Decision: 28/3 Ball Dropped Under Unplayable Ball Rule Comes to Rest in Original Position or Another Position at Which Ball Is Unplayable Q. A player deemed his ball unplayable and, under Rule 28c, dropped his ball within two club-lengths of the spot where it lay. The ball came to rest in the original position or another position at which the ball was unplayable. What is the ruling? A. The ball was in play when it was dropped — Rule 20-4. Thus, if the ball came to rest in the original position, the player must again invoke the unplayable ball Rule, incurring an additional penalty stroke, unless he decides to play the ball as it lies. The same applies if the ball came to rest in another position at which it was unplayable, assuming that the ball did not roll into a position covered by Rule 20-2c, in which case re-dropping without penalty would be required. The last phrase has nothing to do with interference by the original condition: c. When to Re-Drop A dropped ball must be re-dropped without penalty if it: (i) rolls into and comes to rest in a hazard; (ii) rolls out of and comes to rest outside a hazard; (iii) rolls onto and comes to rest on a putting green; (iv) rolls and comes to rest out of bounds; (v) rolls to and comes to rest in a position where there is interference by the condition from which relief was taken under Rule 24-2b (immovable obstruction), Rule 25-1 (abnormal ground conditions), Rule 25-3 (wrong putting green) or a Local Rule (Rule 33-8a), or rolls back into the pitch-mark from which it was lifted under Rule 25-2 (embedded ball); (vi) rolls and comes to rest more than two club-lengths from where it first struck a part of the course; or (vii) rolls and comes to rest nearer the hole than: (a) its original position or estimated position (see Rule 20-2b) unless otherwise permitted by the Rules; or (b) the nearest point of relief or maximum available relief (Rule 24-2, 25-1 or 25-3); or (c) the point where the original ball last crossed the margin of the water hazard or lateral water hazard (Rule 26-1). If the ball when re-dropped rolls into any position listed above, it must be placed as near as possible to the spot where it first struck a part of the course when re-dropped. Note that Rule 28 (Ball Unplayable) is NOT mentioned in any Rule references in the procedure for redropping.

[Fisherdude]

Correct!!! Pretty good. Good to see another rules junkie on here. My wife thinks I am a freakin weirdo when I lay in bed and read The Rules of Golf.

Your wife thinks you're a weirdo?

You should hear the grief I take from the guys I play with every week! "Hey Clay...don't go gettin' a boner or anything, but I think I need a ruling!" One of the assistant professionals and I are sort of the "go to" guys when a Rules decision is needed at my local course. He and I are the only ones who have attended a Rules Seminar. You're correct in that attendance is not required in order to become a PGA Professional. While they do have to pass a test on knowledge of the Rules, it's not a particularly extensive test. I got into an interesting "discussion" with one of the local Head Professionals who was insisting that there was a decision that said you do NOT have to declare a ball to be a provisional ball before hitting. All that was necessary was for your "intention" to be clear. Sheesh. Rules knowledge is across the board with local pros. I had a wonderful experience a few years ago. A good friend of mine and I played the Robert Trent Jones Trail. We met up with a business acquaintance who brought a friend of his to make up the foursome. While we were getting to know each other at the airport, I asked his friend what he did for a living. He replied: "I've been a Head Professional for 25 years.". Wow! What a week that was. Every evening after checking in to our hotel rooms we'd meet for drinks and dinner, and talk about the game and the Rules. That was the beginning of my Rules education, and I owe my fascination to that Head Professional and the education he gave me that week.

[golfchief]

Ok, what I'm understanding is the ball should not be declared under rule 28unplayable,but take relief under we'll say rule 24-2 Immovable Obstruction take your penalty and never hit your ball by the fence again.

[golfchief]

Sorry the OB fence is fixed no relief. How do you get out if your ball keeps rolling back down to the fence after declaring unplayable. can't go back to the tee because the ball is not lost. have the course cut the mound down or create a local rule for moving the ball to a drop area that the ball will not roll back down to the fence?

[golfchief]

Hey guys i'm just trying to understand the correct way to handle the problem and defend the ruling to anyone else. I guess thats why they have rules officials.

[Jenananda]

Clay,
I can't believe you are playing golf in 21 deg weather. Your clubs will shatter into small itty bitty pieces. Wish you were here in Michigan as I'd go out playing as well if I could find someone to risk the frost bite.
Jen

[golfchief]

White lake oaks in white lake Mich. will open this saturday. Don't know where in mich you live.

[Fourputt]

Sorry the OB fence is fixed no relief. How do you get out if your ball keeps rolling back down to the fence after declaring unplayable. can't go back to the tee because the ball is not lost. have the course cut the mound down or create a local rule for moving the ball to a drop area that the ball will not roll back down to the fence?

One of the options under Rule 28 IS to return to the spot where you played the previous stroke from.

If the player deems his ball to be unplayable, he must, under penalty of one stroke: (a) Play a ball as nearly as possible at the spot from which the original ball was last played (see Rule 20-5); or (b) Drop a ball behind the point where the ball lay, keeping that point directly between the hole and the spot on which the ball is dropped, with no limit to how far behind that point the ball may be dropped; or (c) Drop a ball within two club-lengths of the spot where the ball lay, but not nearer the hole.

[Fisherdude]

Ok, what I'm understanding is the ball should not be declared under rule 28unplayable,but take relief under we'll say rule 24-2 Immovable Obstruction take your penalty and never hit your ball by the fence again.

Aaaiiiiiiggghhhhh!

No, no, a thousand times no! Seriously, though, golfchief, I'm really glad you're still here and still asking questions, because it's really, really hard to get correct answers to some of these questions. Especially from your buddies, who've been leading you astray for all these years!! Part of your confusion stems from not understanding the difference between getting FREE relief, like from a cart path, and relief WITH A PENALTY, like from under a bush. How you proceed is different. You already answered your own question about the OB fence...anything like a fence or a wall or a stake that defines OB is by definition NOT an obstruction, but is a part of the golf course. Therefore you may NOT proceed under Rule 24 (Obstructions), and you do NOT get any kind of free relief whatsoever. If you can't play it, you have no other choice but to declare it unplayable. The Rules of Golf try to anticipate different situations, which is why there is (usually) more than one option. As was explained above, there are THREE different choices under Rule 28 (Ball Unplayable). If dropping within two clublengths won't help because the ball would roll back up against the fence, and dropping on a line back from the hole won't help because that would put you OUTSIDE the OB fence, then your remaining choice is to go back and play again from where you played your last stroke, under penalty of one stroke. Hope that helps, and thanks for sticking around! Sometimes this is soooo confusing! Clay

[Fisherdude]

Clay,

My group will play in pretty much anything except lightning or rain so hard you can't hold on to your clubs!

Bring it!! Seriously, though, it was 27 when we teed off. Not much of a breeze, and clear blue skies and plenty of sun. Couldn't stick a tee in the ground until around 7th or 8th hole. Greens didn't start thawing out until around the same time. All in all a very, very nice day, and the beer was good!

[Fisherdude]

... can't go back to the tee because the ball is not lost...

Going back to the tee, that is proceeding under penalty of one stroke and loss of distance, is available to you under several Rules, not just Rule 27 (Lost Ball, Provisional Ball).

The reason this is so is because the Rules understand that it's not unusual that all of your options to drop near where that ball lies might be really, really ugly. You may have hit your ball into a pond, and if you want to drop within two clublengths of the point of entry, that might be waist-high weeds. So, you always have the option of going back to where you played your last shot, and dropping there. The ball against the fence is the same thing. One of three choices, and in this case, probably the best one.

[golfchief]

Got it, I was thinking because I dropped the ball once I lost the option of going back to the tee,but because I haven't taken another stroke yet I'm still allowed to return to the tee.

Just asking, if I tried to hit the ball away from the fence I lose my option to go back to the tee, because that would be my last stroke.

[NM Golf]

Got it, I was thinking because I dropped the ball once I lost the option of going back to the tee,but because I haven't taken another stroke yet I'm still allowed to return to the tee.

If you attempt to hit the ball you then lose the the option to go back sense technically that is the place where you took your last stroke. This is true even if you swing and miss.

[Fisherdude]

Got it, I was thinking because I dropped the ball once I lost the option of going back to the tee,but because I haven't taken another stroke yet I'm still allowed to return to the tee.

Just to make sure you understand, when you dropped the ball the first time, you incurred one penalty stroke. When the ball rolled back into the unplayable position, you're now in a brand new situation. If you decide you don't want to try to play it, and you don't want to drop it again, you can go back to the tee, under an ADDITIONAL penalty stroke.

So, tee shot was one. You declared it unplayable against the fence, took a penalty stroke (total=2), dropped it, and it rolled back up against the fence. You declare it unplayable again, and this time choose to go back to where you played your last stroke. This is an additional penalty stroke (total=3), and you're now hitting four from the tee. You are correct in that you still get to go back because you did NOT play a stroke from any subsequent position. Edit: I realized I didn't answer your last question. If you HAD played a stroke trying to get away from the fence, then you are correct, your "go back to" point is now against the fence. Since the Rules of Golf really don't intend for you to have to give up and go home at this point, you may drop two clublengths as many times as you need to in order to get away from the fence, with an additional penalty stroke EACH TIME you drop. There's an explanation under Decision 28/5.