Unplayable lie (also when has not knowing the rules hurt you?)

[JoelCochran]

I was playing my Club Championship qualifying round yesterday and on 18 I drove my ball well left into a stand of pine trees resulting in an unplayable lie.  Not knowing if we would find it, I played a provisional ball from the tee.  We found the original ball in the trees.

At this point, I believed I was required to play the first ball since I found it.  I also thought the 2 club length drop was my only option, so I proceeded under that rule which forced me to drop behind the trees - I couldn't even hit to the fairway, so I bumped out to the rough short of the fairway (and short of my provisional) and proceeded on to a triple bogey.

This morning I decided to review the rules and this is what Rule 28 says:

Quote:

The player may deem his ball unplayable at any place on the course , except when the ball is in a water hazard . The player is the sole judge as to whether his ball is unplayable.

If the player deems his ball to be unplayable, he must, under penalty of one stroke:

a. Play a ball as nearly as possible at the spot from which the original ball was last played (see Rule 20-5 ); or

b. Drop a ball behind the point where the ball lay, keeping that point directly between the hole and the spot on which the ball is dropped, with no limit to how far behind that point the ball may be dropped; or

c. Drop a ball within two club-lengths of the spot where the ball lay, but not nearer the hole .

Am I correct in my interpretation that I could have played my provisional instead of dropping the original ball?  My incorrect belief was that C was my only option.  In this case, B would have been no help, but A would have saved me at least one stroke.

I'd like confirmation that my (new) understanding is correct, and also ask if there have been times when not knowing the rules hurt your score?

[ghalfaire]

No you could not have played the provisional ball.  Once the original ball is found it is the ball in play.  However you could have used either option A or B if either was advantageous over the two club length relief.

[deasy55]

Once you find the original ball the provisional was no longer an option. You could take an unplayable and go back to the tee hitting your 3rd shot but you cannot use the provisional drive in this option.

[JoelCochran]

I'm not doubting your responses, but I don't see the difference between the provisional and Option A which would let me go back and re-tee the ball.  Is it the ball itself, meaning I have to play Ball A from the tee again as opposed to Ball B that I hit for the provisional?  It just seems unnecessary...

[deasy55]

Because you played the provisional for fear of a 'lost ball'. You found the ball so that provisional no longer matters. You can never have the option between playing the ball you found and playing the provisonal.

Quote:

I'm not doubting your responses, but I don't see the difference between the provisional and Option A which would let me go back and re-tee the ball.  Is it the ball itself, meaning I have to play Ball A from the tee again as opposed to Ball B that I hit for the provisional?  It just seems unnecessary...

[JoelCochran]

OK, that makes sense.  Could I could have declared the ball lost or is that just gaming the system?

[deasy55]

Once the ball has been found (by anyone) within 5 minutes you can't declare it lost.

Originally Posted by JoelCochran

OK, that makes sense.  Could I could have declared the ball lost or is that just gaming the system?

[JoelCochran]

I figured as much, thanks for your help!

[rustyredcab]

If you find it within the 5 minute rule, it is not lost. You do not have the option of declaring it lost. You do not have an option with a provisional -- ever. When you play a provisional, it is either in play or not in play by rule. If you find your ball in bounds, your provisional cannot be played. If you do not find your ball or it out of bounds, the provisional must be played. There is no provisional for a unplayable lie.

In our friendly Saturday game, we will play our own local rule and play a provisional that might be in a water hazard in order to speed play. For example, a tee shot enters the hazard near the tee but may have cleared the hazard and be in play 220 yards down the fairway. By rule, we should drive down the fairway and if we find the ball remained in the hazard, go back and re-tee. In practice, we play a provision that declares if the original ball is found to have cleared the hazard, it is in play, and if in the hazard, the provisional is in play. THIS WOULD NOT FLY IN A TOURNAMENT but makes for a faster friendly game.

[sacm3bill]

Originally Posted by rustyredcab

For example, a tee shot enters the hazard near the tee but may have cleared the hazard and be in play 220 yards down the fairway. By rule, we should drive down the fairway and if we find the ball remained in the hazard, go back and re-tee. In practice, we play a provision that declares if the original ball is found to have cleared the hazard, it is in play, and if in the hazard, the provisional is in play. THIS WOULD NOT FLY IN A TOURNAMENT but makes for a faster friendly game.

The rule for playing a provisional allows you to do so if the original ball "may be lost outside a water hazard". Any time you don't see where the ball lands, and there is a possibility of it not being in a water hazard, it "may be lost". (I've certainly lost my share of balls I thought for sure would be findable.)  Therefore it seems that in your scenario you can hit a provisional ball under the rules as they exist.

Any experts care to chime in?

Edit: I found some relevant decisions:

Originally Posted by USGA

27-2a/2  Provisional Ball Played Solely in Belief Original Ball Might Be in Water Hazard

Q. A player's tee shot might be in a water hazard, but clearly it is not lost outside a water hazard or out of bounds. The player announces that, since his ball might be in the hazard, he is going to play a provisional ball and he does so. Rule 27-2a seems to prohibit a provisional ball in the circumstances. What is the ruling?

A. The player did not play a provisional ball which, according to the Definition of "Provisional Ball," is a ball played under Rule 27-2 for a ball which may be lost outside a water hazard or may be out of bounds. The second ball from the tee was in play since it was not a provisional ball.

27-2a/2.2 Possibility That Original Ball Is in Water Hazard May Not Preclude Play of Provisional Ball

Q. If a player's original ball may have come to rest in a water hazard, is he precluded from playing a provisional ball?

A. No. Even though the original ball may be in a water hazard, the player is entitled to play a provisional ball if the original ball might also be lost outside the water hazard or out of bounds. In such a case, if the original ball is found in the water hazard, the provisional ball must be abandoned — Rule 27-2c (Formerly 27-2c/1)

27-2a/3  Play of Provisional Ball in Absence of Reasonable Possibility Original Ball Is Lost or Out of Bounds

Q. In the absence of reasonable possibility that a ball is lost outside a water hazard or is out of bounds, may the player play a provisional ball?

A. No. If a player plays a ball under such circumstances, the ball is not a provisional ball but the ball in play — see Decision 27-2a/2.

Relevant wording bolded and blued - it sounds like it comes down to a judgement call. You may hit a provisional unless "clearly it is not lost", or there is an "absence of reasonable possibility" that it is lost. Again, I would argue that if you don't see it land, any ball could conceivably be lost (it's happened to me even when I was sure it was in the fairway).

I guess the issue though becomes: If you don't find the ball at all, how do you know if it is in the hazard, or it cleared the hazard but is lost?....

[JoelCochran]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rustyredcab

If you find it within the 5 minute rule, it is not lost. You do not have the option of declaring it lost. You do not have an option with a provisional -- ever. When you play a provisional, it is either in play or not in play by rule. If you find your ball in bounds, your provisional cannot be played. If you do not find your ball or it out of bounds, the provisional must be played. There is no provisional for a unplayable lie.

In our friendly Saturday game, we will play our own local rule and play a provisional that might be in a water hazard in order to speed play. For example, a tee shot enters the hazard near the tee but may have cleared the hazard and be in play 220 yards down the fairway. By rule, we should drive down the fairway and if we find the ball remained in the hazard, go back and re-tee. In practice, we play a provision that declares if the original ball is found to have cleared the hazard, it is in play, and if in the hazard, the provisional is in play. THIS WOULD NOT FLY IN A TOURNAMENT but makes for a faster friendly game.

While I think it is moderately silly, I get it now why I can't play the provisional.  On the surface it seemed no different than exercising the option to rehit from the Teeing Ground, just done so in advance to save time.

In your scenario, if you hit into a hazard that does not seem to fit the definition of when you can hit a provisional:

Quote:

27-2. Provisional Ball

a. Procedure

If a ball may be lost outside a water hazard or may be out of bounds , to save time the player may play another ball provisionally in accordance with Rule 27-1 . The player must inform his opponent in match play or his marker or a fellow-competitor in stroke play that he intends to play a provisional ball , and he must play it before he or his partner goes forward to search for the original ball.

In your case, if you think the ball lost in a water hazard then you may not play a provisional.  If a ball is lost in a hazard you have other drop options, but a provisional is not one of them.

[JoelCochran]

Also, it is clearly stated that the purpose of a provisional is "...to save time...", so I would argue this could/should be amended to allow the use of a provisional in any penalty situation that would allow the player to rehit from the original location.  It seems to me this would fulfill the spirit of the provisional ball.

[dhanson]

it's a fair ruling and not "silly" at all. i think the purpose of these rulings is to prohibit you from gaining strokes, which the ruling obviously did in this circumstance. your provisional was ahead of your chip out, which means you would've been hitting your 4th from the rough as opposed to your 3rd if you played your provisional, correct? if you would've been able to play your provisional, you could've saved par instead of (from the sounds of it) having your absolute best score being a bogey.

[JoelCochran]

Originally Posted by dhanson

it's a fair ruling and not "silly" at all. i think the purpose of these rulings is to prohibit you from gaining strokes, which the ruling obviously did in this circumstance. your provisional was ahead of your chip out, which means you would've been hitting your 4th from the rough as opposed to your 3rd if you played your provisional, correct? if you would've been able to play your provisional, you could've saved par instead of (from the sounds of it) having your absolute best score being a bogey.

Not quite correct: the original ball was possibly lost, so I hit a provisional off the tee.  We found the original ball and I took option C, a 1-stroke penalty and dropped behind the trees.  At that point I was hitting 3.  IF I had exercised the option to re-hit (which I wasn't aware of at the time) then I would have still been hitting 3, just from the tee. [Had I been aware of the rule, I would have hit from the tee again instead of dropping.]

Now pretend the ball was lost: when I hit the provisional from the tee, it was hitting 3.  In both the case of the provisional and rehitting from the tee I would be hitting 3.  To me, there is no real difference between the re-hit option and the provisional option - all it would do is waste time for me to return to the tee to hit.  That's the only "silly" part to me (and like I said, only moderately silly ): if the purpose of the provisional is to save time, then why not allow me to use the provisional I already hit in lieu of exercising the option to return to the tee and do it again.  There is no scoring difference between the two options since in both cases I would be hitting 3 from the tee.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by JoelCochran

Not quite correct: the original ball was possibly lost, so I hit a provisional off the tee.  We found the original ball and I took option C, a 1-stroke penalty and dropped behind the trees.  At that point I was hitting 3.  IF I had exercised the option to re-hit (which I wasn't aware of at the time) then I would have still been hitting 3, just from the tee. [Had I been aware of the rule, I would have hit from the tee again instead of dropping.]

Now pretend the ball was lost: when I hit the provisional from the tee, it was hitting 3.  In both the case of the provisional and rehitting from the tee I would be hitting 3.  To me, there is no real difference between the re-hit option and the provisional option - all it would do is waste time for me to return to the tee to hit.  That's the only "silly" part to me (and like I said, only moderately silly ): if the purpose of the provisional is to save time, then why not allow me to use the provisional I already hit in lieu of exercising the option to return to the tee and do it again.  There is no scoring difference between the two options since in both cases I would be hitting 3 from the tee.

It's a matter of maintaining consistency in the rules.  If you give the player in this case the opportunity to choose between 2 balls in play, you have set a precedent that might later be argued in other situations.  The rules of golf rely on the fact that there is never such a choice between two balls in play.  Otherwise you end up with mulligans being a legitimate strategy, and that would sully the game beyond recognition.

You have one ball in play, and it remains the ball in play until you take action which removes it from play.  One such action is to put another ball in play in a way in which the rules allow.  The moment the second ball is in play the first is out of play, but that is not determined by a choice between two balls, but by an action, or by a procedure under a rule.

The assumption underlying the reason for playing a provisional ball is that original ball is lost or out of bounds.  The moment that assumption is proven false (i.e. the original ball is found in bounds), the reason for playing the provisional ball is no longer valid and it is abandoned.  The provisional ball was never the ball in play, it was never more than a contingency ball.  Since the original ball was always the ball in play, even when its location was uncertain, it remains the ball in play when found. Had you played the second ball and not declared it to be a provisional ball, then your act of playing it made it the ball in play under penalty of stroke and distance, and the original ball is deemed lost, even if later found on the course.

[sacm3bill]

Originally Posted by JoelCochran

To me, there is no real difference between the re-hit option and the provisional option - all it would do is waste time for me to return to the tee to hit.  That's the only "silly" part to me (and like I said, only moderately silly ): if the purpose of the provisional is to save time, then why not allow me to use the provisional I already hit in lieu of exercising the option to return to the tee and do it again.  There is no scoring difference between the two options since in both cases I would be hitting 3 from the tee.

The purpose of the provisional is to save time for a lost ball, not a found ball. The reason you can't use the provisional you already hit when you have a found ball is because many scenarios exist where it would be to your advantage to use a provisional you know is safe and/or in the fairway, instead of playing the found ball. By forcing you to go back to the tee instead of using a provisional you already know is safe, it introduces the possibility that your next one off the tee might *not* be safe. This sometimes makes it more of a gamble as to whether to play the found ball or re-hit, which in the spirit of the rules is how it should be.

[JoelCochran]

Quote:

It's a matter of maintaining consistency in the rules.  If you give the player in this case the opportunity to choose between 2 balls in play, you have set a precedent that might later be argued in other situations.  The rules of golf rely on the fact that there is never such a choice between two balls in play.  Otherwise you end up with mulligans being a legitimate strategy, and that would sully the game beyond recognition.

You have one ball in play, and it remains the ball in play until you take action which removes it from play.  One such action is to put another ball in play in a way in which the rules allow.  The moment the second ball is in play the first is out of play, but that is not determined by a choice between two balls, but by an action, or by a procedure under a rule.

The assumption underlying the reason for playing a provisional ball is that original ball is lost or out of bounds.  The moment that assumption is proven false (i.e. the original ball is found in bounds), the reason for playing the provisional ball is no longer valid and it is abandoned.  The provisional ball was never the ball in play, it was never more than a contingency ball.  Since the original ball was always the ball in play, even when its location was uncertain, it remains the ball in play when found. Had you played the second ball and not declared it to be a provisional ball, then your act of playing it made it the ball in play under penalty of stroke and distance, and the original ball is deemed lost, even if later found on the course.

That's a great answer, thank you!  You had me at "The moment that assumption is proven false..."

I also want to thank everyone else who contributed to this thread: I learned a lot and I appreciate your patience.  I also retract all uses of the word "silly" as it is clearly not the case.

[rustyredcab]

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

I guess the issue though becomes: If you don't find the ball at all, how do you know if it is in the hazard, or it cleared the hazard but is lost?....

I know playing a provisional when it might be in a water hazard is against the rules. I know the rule and I know we are creating our own "local" rule. Trust me when I say that there are many situations on my home course when if a ball clears the hazard, it will be found and in play. If it does not clear the hazard, often your only real option is to re-tee. There are two hole with a drop area but that is a discussion for another post. Often a shot that looks like a close call is found sitting pretty in the fairway but can not be seen from the tee. In these situations, there is no searching -- it is either up or not up. Again, the legal play would be to check the fairway and go back if the ball is not there. For our Saturday game, this seems like a waste of time. But let me also be clear that there is no option to play the provisional or not. If the first ball is up, it must be played. If not, the provisional must be played. With our local rule, one cannot chose to ignore the provisional if their fist ball is in the water hazard. They cannot play from the water hazard. If it is in the hazard, they must play the provisional. If it is not in the hazard, they must play the first ball. If that first ball is not in the hazard but is deemed unplayable, they would have choices that include going back and re-teeing if they wish.