Having trouble drawing the ball with the driver

[tmf9]

So I have been hitting the ball great lately, except i cannot seem to hit a draw with my driver.  My irons i can do it pretty well. but everytime i try to draw my driver i have a closed stance and the ball goes where i aim, with a slight push, and i can't get the thing to turnover, which i need because we have quite a few dogleg lefts at my home course.  Does anyone have any thoughts on what i might be doing wrong?

[CuppedTin]

When you say closed, how closed? I use my rear leg and my rear leg only when choosing my shot selection. It's a lot more consistent to IMO to manipulate the leg than the arms during the swing. Try dropping the rear leg back 12" and move from there...

[tmf9]

When i say closed i mean my footline is aimed at the right hand side of the fairway, and i usually push it in the right rough.  Im pretty sure im coming from the inside but im blocking it some and im not sure why.

[poser]

I would just play around with a few things on the range and find out what works for you.  Closing your shoulders a bit could help also trying to feel that the club is overtaking more with the driver can also help.

[Tomboys]

Maybe this will help:

http://thesandtrap.com/b/playing_tips/ball_flight_laws

[ggolokin]

what about your clubface at address? that needs to be closed aswell as your stance..

imagine / is ur feet line and | is your clubface

/ |

[tmf9]

Originally Posted by ggolokin

what about your clubface at address? that needs to be closed aswell as your stance..

imagine / is ur feet line and | is your clubface

/ |

Thats probably it, i close my feet, but i use a square clubface at address

[tmf9]

Originally Posted by Tomboys

Maybe this will help:

http://thesandtrap.com/b/playing_tips/ball_flight_laws

Thats a good article, preciate the find man

[poser]

closing the face at address isn't going to help you hit a draw its going to help you hit straight and pull draws which don't help anyone.  Your face needs to be open to the target to start it right and closed to path to make it draw.

[permarkc]

Originally Posted by poser

closing the face at address isn't going to help you hit a draw its going to help you hit straight and pull draws which don't help anyone.  Your face needs to be open to the target to start it right and closed to path to make it draw.

I am not sure I agree....or maybe just dont follow you. I am NOT saying your wrong as I feel everyones technique is there own, but,,,when I draw the ball with any club, I close my stance, leaving the face directly at the intended target, (closed), and swing inside out depending on how much draw I want. My inside out is what starts the ball right, and my closed club face is what puts the spin on to bring it back.

I agree with the hitting the range to find what works. A freind of mine just moves his left foot forward or back, seems to swing exactly the same, and makes the ball do incredible things...I cannot ( after hours on the range),  duplicate what he does.

Picture the shot.......Believe the picture.....

[poser]

Sorry but, ball starts around 80% at where the face points not path.  Trackman along with slow motion video proved this.  Look for some D plane videos Brian Manzella has some along with Golf evolution.

The old way of thnking was path is where the ball started and face angle made it curve.  That is totally backwards to what really happens.

The article above that was posted is also a good read.

The horizontal launch angle is determined by only two parameters, the club path and the face angle. As a rule of thumb, the horizontal launch angle is 15% determined by the club path and 85% determined by the face angle. For example, assume a club path of +6.7 degrees (6.7 degrees inside-out for a right-handed player) and a face angle of -1 degree (1 degree closed for a right-handed player). This would result in a horizontal launch angle of 0 degrees (ball starting at the target line).

In other words, you are saying that the face angle is by far the most dominating factor for the initial direction of the ball. Is this not in direct contradiction with the "Ball Flight Laws"?

Yes it is. According to the "old" ball flight laws, the initial direction of the ball (HLA) is 100% dictated by the club path. All the scientific people in the golf industry know that this is wrong, yet still a lot of PGA professionals use the incorrect 'old' ball flight laws in teaching. And many PGA organizations around the world do not teach their apprentice and member professionals according to the 'true' ball flight laws

[LankyLefty]

Im no expert on drawing anything let alone a driver but I know that closing your face is gonna do didly squat. Its a good way to make the ball curve... directly out of play.

A draw is supposed to arc around an obstacle closing the face is going to start the ball more towards the obstacle you want to avoid which defeats the entire purpose of a draw.

I dont know how to hit a good draw but Im pretty damn sure it doesn't involve closing the face relative to you target.

[Dr. Strangeclub]

I'd "mess around" a little at the range.  Instead of trying to hit really nice shots, just the way you like them, fiddle around with duck hooking the ball and work backwards to a normal shot.  You can learn a lot by hitting extremes.  It also adds the context of "how much", rather than some ideal amount, so that drawing/hooking can apply to other shots as well, as you get a better feel for the swing path and grip that creates these shots.  You'll be able to hit better trouble shots that require various shades of hook, draw, what have you.  I'd even work on the other direction, too, not just perfect power fades, but some violent but predictable slices.  Practicing big slices and snap hooks provides a feedback loop that imparts a better gestalt feel for clubface orientation relative to grip and stance than simply trying to hit "nice" shots all the time.  Being too rigid in these matters can limit our natural feel for what we are doing with the club and how the ball reacts to it.

[permarkc]

Im not going to argue with you, I am no physics major by any means....I dont know why it works, I just know I have a lot of control to draw and fade a ball....and most of it comes ,for me anyways, from a closed stance, inside out swing for a draw, and an open stance, outside in swing for a fade....but I hit 2-300 balls a day and probably 50-60 are draws and fades...

I did find that after a couple thousand balls and getting the draws and fades down, that hitting the ball straight has become much easier...I bounce around at 68 to 73% fairways...way up from about 55% a few months ago....

Maybe you can tell me this, I can draw and fade phenomenally with my 5,6,and7 iron.....the rest I really have to work at...I can do it, just not near the accuracy...

After reading your post again (and mine) I wonder if I am subconciously opening and or closing the face with the inside out or outside in swing? Like I said, I dont know why it works, but I can duplicate pretty regularily.....

Lanky.....Closing the face will make the ball curve....pretty sure a curve is what were after......we just want to control the curve....and we didnt get to ,tnf9,4.3, cupped tin,4.3, poser 1, by hitting the ball"directly out of play"...

Key words here....practice, practice, practice..........

Originally Posted by poser

Sorry but, ball starts around 80% at where the face points not path.  Trackman along with slow motion video proved this.  Look for some D plane videos Brian Manzella has some along with Golf evolution.

The old way of thnking was path is where the ball started and face angle made it curve.  That is totally backwards to what really happens.

The article above that was posted is also a good read.

[michaeljames92]

No the keywords are that the ball starts where the clubface is aiming and the path makes the ball curve.

[poser]

Permarkc you must be subconciously opening or closing the face.  It actually makes very good since when you think about where the ball should start because of face angle.  Take a putter and open the face and hit a put where does the ball start?  To hit a true draw the ball must start right of target and come back to target.  If you hit it at target or left of target that will over draw and miss your intended target.

If it works for you then go for it alot of great players played that way but, if you want to be correct and I beleive make it easier for new players then the new ball flight laws are correct.  How many times have you seen slicers being told their face is wide open then they develop this over the top huge pull because everyone tells them to square the face when their face was never the problem to begin with usually.

[MiniBlueDragon]

It seems the confusion is coming from the lack of description on "closing the club face" - Closing it in relation to the target? The swing path? The cat next door?

If we say that 80% of the ball's initial starting direction comes from the club face at impact then a draw of the ball for a right-handed golfer is simply a case of:

Push Draw - Club face open to the target but closed to the path of the swing at impact. The ball starts out along the line perpendicular to the club face (toward the right of the target) and it then curves left toward the target.

Straight Draw - Club face pointing at the target but also closed to the swing path at impact. The ball starts out along the line perpendicular to the club face (straight at the target) and it then curves toward the left of the target.

Pull Draw - Club face closed to the target and closed to the swing path at impact. The ball starts out along the line perpendicular to the club face (left of the target) and it then curves even more left of the target.

As for the OP's problem the sole reason for straight push shots would be simply that your club face is too open at impact. For fixes I'd look at strengthening your left hand grip, Adding a little planar flexion to your left wrist at address/impact and also taking a look at your left wrist at the top of the backswing to see if you're excessively cupping it. Something else to take a look at might be your ball position in relation to your front foot; if the ball's too far forward you could be trying to hit up on the ball too much and subsequently keeping the face open too long.

[permarkc]

Without any type of professional guidance but having got to the point of even thinking of hitting the ball other than attempted straight...when it came time for draw and fade, I made the correlation thru ping pong...I know...sounds stupid....but with a ping pong paddle facing the opponent, and a strong left to right swing, the resulting english brings the ball back...but the paddle still faces the opponent...if it were to be facing right of the opponent...it would not have a chance of coming back...I am sure the physics of a golf ball and a ping pong ball are completley different, but the logic seems to fit and it does work for me...I would hate the time and the process to change what works for me...and I truly believe the only real reason I am still a +5 is the _*&^$%$*(^&)_*(+(*&*&*^$@!# flatstick on the green!!   but I am slowly sneaking up on that one too......

I am sure if I were to have my swing "analysed" and tried to change all thats "wrong" with it, I would be back in the double digits asap.....I have bad habits...but they are mine...and they work for me!! I know my swing, and I know the result...and I have a good time even when I hit poor rounds....

Thx, Poser...If you get to central Texas, holler...We'll hit a round....

Originally Posted by poser

Permarkc you must be subconciously opening or closing the face.  It actually makes very good since when you think about where the ball should start because of face angle.  Take a putter and open the face and hit a put where does the ball start?  To hit a true draw the ball must start right of target and come back to target.  If you hit it at target or left of target that will over draw and miss your intended target.

If it works for you then go for it alot of great players played that way but, if you want to be correct and I beleive make it easier for new players then the new ball flight laws are correct.  How many times have you seen slicers being told their face is wide open then they develop this over the top huge pull because everyone tells them to square the face when their face was never the problem to begin with usually.