Curious about this situation/incident opinions needed.

[bnz506]

So yesterday, I booked a 18 hole outing we were a two some... so we go out to the first hole and there are two groups in front of us, 3 older ladies probably in their 40s-50s, beginner golfers, and another group of 4 who were riding their carts (these guys were teeing off because the ladies let them go first)... so we waited for the 4 some to tee off and they were alright... when these ladies teed off we saw they were hitting rollers 5-20 yards at a time... we waited 5 minutes for them to roll the ball but were still within driving distance from us.

I talk to the guy with the tee times in the golf shop, I asked could I tee off from the back 9 and hes like sure... so we started off the back 9 took us 1hr 15mins to finish and when we went up to the front 9 there was a two some teeing off in carts and another 4 some of ladies walking, these ladies let us go ahead of them and the marshall came up to us saying "why are you playing the front 9 again"

so I told him the dude said we could start in the back 9, and hes like "thats not what he told me" and im like "he did" and the marshall is like... "well we are all booked up in the front now so you guys will have to play the back 9 again.

Right before we drove off back to the 10th tee, the ladies gave me a look like we were trying to screw them out of their tee time (that was kind of annoying).

That kind of left a bad taste in my mouth... Im new to golf and so this is the first time this has happened to me.

Im wondering if this is a normal thing that happens.

[trackster]

I know it might seem like those women were beginner golfers but chances are they weren't lol.  It's frustrating to get behind some one who golfs like that.

My advice would of been to just go talk to the "dude" that made the tee times to clear things up.

On another note 1:15 is pretty solid for 9 holes .

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by bnz506

So yesterday, I booked a 18 hole outing we were a two some... so we go out to the first hole and there are two groups in front of us, 3 older ladies probably in their 40s-50s, beginner golfers, and another group of 4 who were riding their carts (these guys were teeing off because the ladies let them go first)... so we waited for the 4 some to tee off and they were alright... when these ladies teed off we saw they were hitting rollers 5-20 yards at a time... we waited 5 minutes for them to roll the ball but were still within driving distance from us.

I talk to the guy with the tee times in the golf shop, I asked could I tee off from the back 9 and hes like sure... so we started off the back 9 took us 1hr 15mins to finish and when we went up to the front 9 there was a two some teeing off in carts and another 4 some of ladies walking, these ladies let us go ahead of them and the marshall came up to us saying "why are you playing the front 9 again"

so I told him the dude said we could start in the back 9, and hes like "thats not what he told me" and im like "he did" and the marshall is like... "well we are all booked up in the front now so you guys will have to play the back 9 again.

Right before we drove off back to the 10th tee, the ladies gave me a look like we were trying to screw them out of their tee time (that was kind of annoying).

That kind of left a bad taste in my mouth... Im new to golf and so this is the first time this has happened to me.

Im wondering if this is a normal thing that happens.

Where I work as starter you could face the same dilemma, although you might not even get on the back 9 again, depending on how crowded it is.  We generally only allow 9 hole players to start on the 10th hole for the first 1:45 in the morning.  By then or shortly after, we have 18 hole players making the turn, and usually a full tee sheet on the front 9, with no place to put a twosome.

I have done as your starter did and sent an 18 hole group out on the back first, but I don't do it unless I have an open slot about 2 hours later on the front which I can put them in, or I warn them that they might have to wait for an opening after they finish the first 9. But I if I do make such an arrangement, the ranger isn't going to have any say in it.  As the starter I have control of who goes out, when they go out, and which side they start on.  All the ranger is there for is to keep things moving smoothly out on the course.

[Gresh24]

That's the chance you took by going off the back first.

[BrianJ]

It has been my experience that starting off the back always sounds like an easy plan to fix a bottleneck at 1, but it creates headaches and problems for the starters and the golf course in general.  Great post by fourputt, however like he said the marshal shouldn't have any say in directing you where to go.  The marshal should have been out at the lady 4some and "gently" persuading them to pick up the pace :)

[rustyredcab]

1. "3 older ladies probably in their 40s-50s"

Ladies in their 40s-50s are not old ladies.:)

2. The fact that you mention gender shows a gender bias that is as unpleasant and disappointing as it is popular in golf. Based on your comment about 40 being old, I would guess that you are still pretty young. It seems a shame to me that young people perpetuate the biases toward women golfers. Watch the LPGA. You will never be as good as the worst players on the Ladies tour. Yet you will join with the ignorant masses and old men by pointing out every slow woman golfer as a woman.

3. The fact that some started didn't trust you is likely based on biases he has toward young people. You are not to be taken at your word. Because young punks all lie. Or maybe his bias is just people who are all "like" talkers.

Your question could have been asked respectfully without mentioning gender. Try it next time. Help teach us old guys that not all young people are punks.

[IlliniDrillSgt]

Originally Posted by Gresh24

That's the chance you took by going off the back first.

Love the picture for your screen name.  Go Illini

[bnz506]

Originally Posted by Gresh24

That's the chance you took by going off the back first.

Originally Posted by BrianJ

It has been my experience that starting off the back always sounds like an easy plan to fix a bottleneck at 1, but it creates headaches and problems for the starters and the golf course in general.  Great post by fourputt, however like he said the marshal shouldn't have any say in directing you where to go.  The marshal should have been out at the lady 4some and "gently" persuading them to pick up the pace :)

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Where I work as starter you could face the same dilemma, although you might not even get on the back 9 again, depending on how crowded it is.  We generally only allow 9 hole players to start on the 10th hole for the first 1:45 in the morning.  By then or shortly after, we have 18 hole players making the turn, and usually a full tee sheet on the front 9, with no place to put a twosome.

I have done as your starter did and sent an 18 hole group out on the back first, but I don't do it unless I have an open slot about 2 hours later on the front which I can put them in, or I warn them that they might have to wait for an opening after they finish the first 9. But I if I do make such an arrangement, the ranger isn't going to have any say in it.  As the starter I have control of who goes out, when they go out, and which side they start on.  All the ranger is there for is to keep things moving smoothly out on the course.

Thanks guys,

Im still kind of new to golf so now ive learned my lesson.

Next time ill just stick it out in the front nine... I mean, I dont mind playing the back or front 9 twice... its an opportunity to try to do better, but the guy (marshall?) talked to us in a tone like we were lying and tried to pull a fast one and thats what really bugged me.

Is poor etiquette to go up to a group and ask if we could play through, or should we wait for them to ask if we want to play through?

Originally Posted by trackster

I know it might seem like those women were beginner golfers but chances are they weren't lol.  It's frustrating to get behind some one who golfs like that.

My advice would of been to just go talk to the "dude" that made the tee times to clear things up.

On another note 1:15 is pretty solid for 9 holes .

I actually over heard the 3 ladies talking to one of the men they let tee off first about them being beginners (which is why they let these men tee off first).

I dont know if this is the correct term but sometimes we play ready golf to the extreme.. One of us is dropped off at their ball while grabbing a few clubs around the distance they might need... while the driver goes to his ball and hits... by the time the driver hits he would meet up half way to pick up the person who was dropped off.. when we get in or around the green, we are usually hitting at the same time (or virtually at the same time) unless there is a chance our shots would cross paths (we havent hit each others balls yet).

Originally Posted by rustyredcab

1. "3 older ladies probably in their 40s-50s"

Ladies in their 40s-50s are not old ladies.:)

2. The fact that you mention gender shows a gender bias that is as unpleasant and disappointing as it is popular in golf. Based on your comment about 40 being old, I would guess that you are still pretty young. It seems a shame to me that young people perpetuate the biases toward women golfers. Watch the LPGA. You will never be as good as the worst players on the Ladies tour. Yet you will join with the ignorant masses and old men by pointing out every slow woman golfer as a woman.

3. The fact that some started didn't trust you is likely based on biases he has toward young people. You are not to be taken at your word. Because young punks all lie. Or maybe his bias is just people who are all "like" talkers.

Your question could have been asked respectfully without mentioning gender. Try it next time. Help teach us old guys that not all young people are punks.

Youre coming off as someone who likes to argue just to argue, protest just to protest, hate the government just to hate the government (its hard to take it seriously).

I never said these women were slow because they were women... they just so happened to be women.  If they were 3 older men, the story would have went "3 older guys, probably in their 40s-50s, beginner golfers, rolling the ball down the fairway (same with 3 younger guys or girls, replace where appropriate).  I didnt describe the guys these ladies let tee off first because they were irrelevant (they werent going to slow us down based on their drives) they hit monster drives with slight draws into the fairway (which was a dog left) and were playing ready golf, saying they were rolling the ball down the fairway would be an incorrect description.  In fact when we went to the back 9 there was this foursome of older ladies in front of us who were hitting the ball very well (we eventually past them because we were a twosome), if they were teeing off first in the front nine instead of the 3 older ladies, starting in the back 9 wouldnt have come up.

I mentioned these 3 older ladies more descriptively because they were the main characters in my story that lead to the decision to take on the back nine first.

There is a huge difference between older and old (I did not say old). When I or most people say older... it is in relation to the one who is telling the story... mathematically 40-50 years old is older than 29... so I would not say "3 younger ladies, probably in their 40s-50s, beginner golfers..." because they are not younger than I am.

I could have just said 3 golfers but I was being descriptive of the main characters and to a lesser degree the supporting cast.  The cat in the hat is a tall cat slender cat, with a tall red and white hat, it would be hard to imagine the cat in the hat without a proper description, is he tall is he short, is he garfield fat or is he skinny? (and just because I said the cat in the hat is tall and slender, I am not hinting that he is anorexic or have any other kind of eating disorder or other cats are over weight).

I was not pointing out anyone because of their age or gender... had I done so the sentence would have looked more like "These 3 old ladies where rolling the ball down the fairway, the fact that they were ladies and old is the reason they were so slow. "

I actually think you might be the one with the bias because you automatically jump to these conclusions, I believe its you who needs to work out these issues.

[djackson89]

Originally Posted by bnz506

I dont know if this is the correct term but sometimes we play ready golf to the extreme.. One of us is dropped off at their ball while grabbing a few clubs around the distance they might need... while the driver goes to his ball and hits... by the time the driver hits he would meet up half way to pick up the person who was dropped off.. when we get in or around the green, we are usually hitting at the same time (or virtually at the same time) unless there is a chance our shots would cross paths (we havent hit each others balls yet).

Maybe a weird question, but why? I've had my fair share of quick rounds but why rush yourself out there? No one wants to be out there forever but putting at the same time? That's intense.

[trackster]

Originally Posted by rustyredcab

1. "3 older ladies probably in their 40s-50s"

Ladies in their 40s-50s are not old ladies.:)

2. The fact that you mention gender shows a gender bias that is as unpleasant and disappointing as it is popular in golf. Based on your comment about 40 being old, I would guess that you are still pretty young. It seems a shame to me that young people perpetuate the biases toward women golfers. Watch the LPGA. You will never be as good as the worst players on the Ladies tour. Yet you will join with the ignorant masses and old men by pointing out every slow woman golfer as a woman.

3. The fact that some started didn't trust you is likely based on biases he has toward young people. You are not to be taken at your word. Because young punks all lie. Or maybe his bias is just people who are all "like" talkers.

Your question could have been asked respectfully without mentioning gender. Try it next time. Help teach us old guys that not all young people are punks.

Yeah dude you are trolling.  You don't tell a golf situation and say "I had three Its in front of me".  Also he said "older" not old.  A 30 year old is older than me, doesn't mean he or she is old.  The only bias i have seen is your stupid comment right here.  If I went by your logic I would say all old guys are A holes because you have said you are an old guy, and your post made you sound like an A hole.

I spose by trolling you achieved what you wanted, a response out of me.  But get a life.

[Gresh24]

Originally Posted by bnz506

Next time ill just stick it out in the front nine... I mean, I dont mind playing the back or front 9 twice... its an opportunity to try to do better, but the guy (marshall?) talked to us in a tone like we were lying and tried to pull a fast one and thats what really bugged me.

Is poor etiquette to go up to a group and ask if we could play through, or should we wait for them to ask if we want to play through?

When you go out on the weekend, unfortunately, a lot of times it is slow.  Just the way it is.  I don't like it either, but if you want to play, you have to deal with it.

As far as playing through, make sure there is an opening in front of the group you're going through, if you decide to ask.  If everyone on the course is waiting, no use in jumping one or two groups.  And I always give the group an opportunity or two to offer before asking.

[bnz506]

Originally Posted by Gresh24

When you go out on the weekend, unfortunately, a lot of times it is slow.  Just the way it is.  I don't like it either, but if you want to play, you have to deal with it.

As far as playing through, make sure there is an opening in front of the group you're going through, if you decide to ask.  If everyone on the course is waiting, no use in jumping one or two groups.  And I always give the group an opportunity or two to offer before asking.

I expect slowness to a certain extent, but these ladies were moving along hitting 5-20 yard dribblers (in all honesty when I say 5-20 yard dribblers and the 5 minute wait time I was trying to make them sound a little better than they were, the dribblers werent always forward they were sometimes sideways. They teed off the red tees and they were around that area for quit some time when i decided to give them 5 minutes before I went to the club house to ask if i can start off the back 9, when I got back they couldnt have been more than 120-140 yard from the red tees)  it looked like it would have been an extraordinarily long day following them.  They didnt offer us to go a head of them so I didnt at the time know if it would have been okay to ask them if we could go a head of them.  I was worried if we teed off following them and they didnt let us a head of them we would have spent more than 3 hours playing the first 9 holes (it took us nearly 3 hours to finish 9 holes the first time we learned to play golf).

The guys in front of these ladies were just killing the ball so im sure there would have been a huge gap between these two groups even after the first hole.

Thanks, If this situation came up again I will probably be better equip to handle it.

Originally Posted by djackson89

Maybe a weird question, but why? I've had my fair share of quick rounds but why rush yourself out there? No one wants to be out there forever but putting at the same time? That's intense.

I mean we are not literally putting at the same time (most of the time).  When he putts Ill putt before his ball stops rolling, but if hes really far away and im pretty close or vis versa, we could potentially putt at the same time... weve done it enough times where it feels routine and we dont feel rushed playing like this, we still line up our shots and take a good swings.

When a course is not busy we play at a normal pace, playing ready golf and putting out.  I havent checked to see if our scores show any real difference between playing normal and fast but I dont think it does, we tend to shot around the same scores either way.

[MackJL06]

seriously? youre calling somebody a troll?...pot calling the kettle black?

Originally Posted by trackster

Yeah dude you are trolling.  You don't tell a golf situation and say "I had three Its in front of me".  Also he said "older" not old.  A 30 year old is older than me, doesn't mean he or she is old.  The only bias i have seen is your stupid comment right here.  If I went by your logic I would say all old guys are A holes because you have said you are an old guy, and your post made you sound like an A hole.

I spose by trolling you achieved what you wanted, a response out of me.  But get a life.

i have no problem with the OP calling them older ladies....i wouldnt care if he called them grandmas....if they were old guys he could have called them geezers....if it was young guys he could have called them "kids"...who cares? the important part was that they were playing slow.

people who want to disagree with what you are going to say are going to find argument with whatever it is you say....so...yeah...just try to filter through the posts for those who commented on your content.

I guess a question I have is...was the "dude" who said you could go off on the back nine still there when you made the turn? was the marshall the same? was there a starter @ 10 as well? either way its a crappy situation. guy was probably just trying to do what he thought was right and had some precedent for why he acted in that way...but it annoyed you in that you werent getting what you knew was right....lose/lose. maybe he, specifically, had been told to not let anyone play the front 9 as the back. who knows!

i know at my home course they pretty much give me free reign. i play there a few times a week and am always a single so they allow me to play in whatever order i want ...and if i want to join with a group...whatever. developing relationships on the golf course can give you some nice perks.

[rustyredcab]

I have no intention of hijacking this thread. This will be my last post of the subject. Most people reading this thread agree that the intended issue in the thread is the 3-some looked slow after their tee shots. I agree that a slow group in front creates issues. I agree that any good starter should assume that the guests are telling the truth and not questioned OP after the played the back nine. And most everyone would agree with MackJL06's comment:

Quote:

i have no problem with the OP calling them older ladies....i wouldnt care if he called them grandmas....if they were old guys he could have called them geezers....if it was young guys he could have called them "kids"...who cares? the important part was that they were playing slow.

My point is that when the descriptor is not relevant to the issue (like "three slow geezers"), it can be viewed as simply adding information. But when the descriptor is of an oft oppressed group (think "black men" or "mexicans" or "women" when referring to golf), it smacks of a general negative bias peaking through. And it adds to the negative stereotype. And when we internalize the bias to the point of not even noticing when we do it, it can seem nit picky for someone like me to point it out. Even when one means no malice, being sensitive to oft oppressed groups is good form.

Perhaps I am too sensitive. Perhaps years of hearing people denigrate women golfers has made me hear insults when none were contemplated. Perhaps men-only dining rooms and clubs that do not allow women on the property, and growing up with a mother and three sisters all have made me feel that an open forum comment that adds to the negative stereotype of women golfers, intentionally or otherwise, needs a rebuttal. Substitute another oft oppressed group for the word "women" and see if you find it to be a slur.

That's all the lecturing I have for today.

[turtleback]

Originally Posted by bnz506

The guys in front of these ladies were just killing the ball so im sure there would have been a huge gap between these two groups even after the first hole.

So on the second tee, after (if?) the  gap has developed, you go up to the women and very politely say, "Ma'am, would you all feel more comfortable if we played ahead of you, so you won't feel like we're breathing down your necks?  I remember when I was just a beginner and it always made me nervous when people were right behind me."

[Spyder]

Originally Posted by rustyredcab

1. "3 older ladies probably in their 40s-50s"

Ladies in their 40s-50s are not old ladies.:)

2. The fact that you mention gender shows a gender bias that is as unpleasant and disappointing as it is popular in golf. Based on your comment about 40 being old, I would guess that you are still pretty young. It seems a shame to me that young people perpetuate the biases toward women golfers. Watch the LPGA. You will never be as good as the worst players on the Ladies tour. Yet you will join with the ignorant masses and old men by pointing out every slow woman golfer as a woman.

3. The fact that some started didn't trust you is likely based on biases he has toward young people. You are not to be taken at your word. Because young punks all lie. Or maybe his bias is just people who are all "like" talkers.

Your question could have been asked respectfully without mentioning gender. Try it next time. Help teach us old guys that not all young people are punks.

With this, as well as the other posts that you followed this up with, aren't you just as guilty as anyone for being a little overly opinionated, as well as stereotypical? I'm quite "young" myself, but I also know as well as you do that there is an equal balance between ALL ages and both genders of "those types of guys" - or as you call them - "punks". You're making yourself out to be the person that screams out the front door at the two harmless little girls picking flowers in your front yard... "Get off my lawn!".

Relax and breathe.

[Spyder]

I apologize for getting off track, but hypocritical statements rub me the wrong way.

To the OP's question... the simple answer is no this is not common in golf . Like 4putt stated, the ranger/marshal has absolutely no say in where you tee off. The ranger is there to maintain behavior on the course, maintain speed of play, resolve any disputes/issues and perform side-duties such as emptying trash cans, replenishing ball washers, washing down carts and refueling/charging carts to line them up for play.

It's unfortunate that this happened to you. My only advice would be next time, play the first hole out with etiquette (wait for whoever is in front of you to finish out without rushing your drives on their backs). Then, drive up to them and politely ask if they would mind if you played through. A lot of people take that question the wrong way, but if you come off the proper way about it - 9 out of 10 people/groups will let you play through. You will get the blunt "No" sometimes though and that is their right as well.

[bnz506]

Originally Posted by Spyder

I apologize for getting off track, but hypocritical statements rub me the wrong way.

To the OP's question... the simple answer is no this is not common in golf. Like 4putt stated, the ranger/marshal has absolutely no say in where you tee off. The ranger is there to maintain behavior on the course, maintain speed of play, resolve any disputes/issues and perform side-duties such as emptying trash cans, replenishing ball washers, washing down carts and refueling/charging carts to line them up for play.

It's unfortunate that this happened to you. My only advice would be next time, play the first hole out with etiquette (wait for whoever is in front of you to finish out without rushing your drives on their backs). Then, drive up to them and politely ask if they would mind if you played through. A lot of people take that question the wrong way, but if you come off the proper way about it - 9 out of 10 people/groups will let you play through. You will get the blunt "No" sometimes though and that is their right as well.

From now on if I will only start in the front 9 unless im told to start in the back 9 and if im starting the back 9 for them, I will ask in writing that I will get to finish out the front 9 (not really, its a not funny contract joke)

Originally Posted by turtleback

So on the second tee, after (if?) the  gap has developed, you go up to the women and very politely say, "Ma'am, would you all feel more comfortable if we played ahead of you, so you won't feel like we're breathing down your necks?  I remember when I was just a beginner and it always made me nervous when people were right behind me."

You know what, I kind of forgot what it felt to have someone baring down on me and waiting on me hehe, I also did not like that feeling :D