Footballer picks Top Five golfers

[Kieran123]

Originally Posted by ThominOH

Tiger has NOT brought more golfers onto the course.. Tiger is a good ambassador to TV sports golf and ratings, but he is not a good one for the general public golf industry..   In MY opinion..

How is that even an opinion? It's basic fact that Tiger has brought more people onto the course.

Not good for the general public golf industry? What the hell does that even mean? If you mean not good for people like us - you're wrong again. Tiger's branding and affiliation with Nike and being hugely successful contributed to millions and millions of sales golf related. The more competition, the better for us.

[x129]

I am sure Seve, Arnie, Jack, Player, and so on would all beat Tiger sometimes.  After all no one wins 100% of the time.  I am also sure if Jacks and Tigers primes had overlapped, both would have a lot fewer majors. But at their peak, it is hard to come up with any golfer have a performance of 2000 US Open Tiger Woods. The last 2 years have made us forgot how awesome he was when he was on. It is also hard to evaluate how good certain runs are as sometimes wins don't sum it up. Take Jack between 1971 and 1978 in the majors. 7 wins is good. 17 top 5 places to go allow with it is a crazy level of good golf. Is it better than Woods (1990-2007) with 11 wins and 8 top 5s (and a lot more out of 10 top events)? Depends on your criteria.

Saying Vijay or Duval were better than Tiger though is really pushing it though. You can do a bit of head to head since there primes overlapped a bit. Lets look at majors starting in 1997 and count how many times Vijay finished in front of Tiger

1997 1

1998 1

1999 0 (1 tie)

2000 1

2001 2

2002 0

2003 3

2004 2

2005 0

2006 1

There is one year in which VJ outperformed Tiger. In the win category Tiger has 12 VJ has 3. And it wasn't like Vijay had a prime before Tiger that should be factored in Duval stacks up even worse. On any given day, any pga pro can win. But most of the time Tiger handled Vijay and Duval.

Originally Posted by ThominOH

Heck, I'm not even a personal fan of Arnie, but I give him credit where I think it's due.. I personally believe Seve in his prime would beat Tiger, just like Duval and Vijay did, but that is just an opinion for the fantasy league.. This thread is like naming your all time best college quarterbacks.. Opinions galore, none are right or wrong..

[The Recreational Golfer]

Trying to find the point where the thread got hijacked . . .

[RC]

I would go with:

Nicklaus

Woods

Hogan

Nelson

Snead

[cdnglf]

Nelson over Snead? Snead won 2 more majors, and 30 more PGA Tour events. As has been widely documented, many of Nelson's wins (including the streak) were against very weak war-depleted fields.  I'd rank him somewhere between 16 and 22 or so, behind (in chronological order) Vardon, Hagen, Sarazen, Snead, Hogan, Palmer, Casper, Player, Nicklaus, Trevino, Watson, Ballesteros, Faldo, Mickelson, and Woods; and in the mix with guys like Singh, Els, Norman, Floyd, etc.

[RC]

Yeah, I am aware of the historical context of Nelson and how the war years diminished the fields, but not many realize it was his swing that formed a large part of the Hogan swing transformation.  I think of Nelson as the father of the beginning of the modern swing.  For that, I put him on a higher plane than record alone.  Nelson did not say much of his technique, but golfers like Tom Watson and others will support the value of Nelson's technique.  Apparently, he, like Bobby Jones, did not really care to play through long careers.  Agreed, on record alone, he would not be in the top five but I doubt his record string of victories will every be broken even with unusual circumstances.

Snead surely was a great, and deserving of being in the top five in my opinion.  Upon reflection I would move him up a notch, ahead of Nelson.  His was a natural athleticism, something unteachable.  I read somewhere that at age 70 Snead could still jump up and put his foot on a normal ceiling.  I have no way of knowing if this is true but if so, that is amazing. His swing was a natural thing.  He would warm-up, to see how he was hitting it (the ball flight,) and then play that way until the magic would wear off then change to a different ball flight and play using that for a while.  He won with different styles and that is also impressive.

[cdnglf]

Interesting take on Nelson. Your post has resurrected a vague memory of reading or watching a piece on Nelson that credited him with being the first guy to really figure out how to take advantage of steel shafts.

For my list, I was sticking to playing record, adjusted for era and circumstance. Trying to calculate "influence" is pretty tough, as it seems impossible to compare the impact of things as disparate as Vardon's grip, Hagen's role in creating the tour, Sarazen's invention/popularization of the sand wedge, Nelson's swing, Arnie's Army, Jones's founding of Augusta National and the Masters, etc.

[ThominOH]

Originally Posted by cdnglf

I'd love to hear the "other factors" you used in determining that Tiger wasn't one of the top 5, because I've never seen a reasonable argument that put him lower than second.

Simply.. The same reason why I will NEVER consider Barry Bonds or Mark McGwire as home run champions.. I will have to support and agree with what Gary Player said back in 2007, "Whether it's HGH, whether it's Creatine or whether it's steroids, I know for a fact that some golfers are doing it."  Can we say unlicensed Canadian doctor Anthony Galea?

[cdnglf]

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Simply.. The same reason why I will NEVER consider Barry Bonds or Mark McGwire as home run champions.. I will have to support and agree with what Gary Player said back in 2007, "Whether it's HGH, whether it's Creatine or whether it's steroids, I know for a fact that some golfers are doing it."  Can we say unlicensed Canadian doctor Anthony Galea?

I think you simply don't like Tiger the man and are grasping at any straw you can find to discredit Tiger the golfer. There are an awful lot of logical holes in your argument.

The fact that Player thinks somebody in golf is using PEDs of some sort is a reasonable guess, as we've seen guys caught in pretty much every other sport that tests. But so what? Player didn't claim that Tiger was using.

McGwire has admitted to the use of steroids and there is quite a bit of evidence that indicates that Barry Bonds did as well. As far as I know, there is nothing - not even the most circumstantial of evidence - that suggests Tiger has ever used steroids. Use of HGH is a different (and probably lesser) issue than the use of steroids, but even then the only connection with HGH is via Galea, who had many patients - some of whom may have had a valid reason for using HGH (which is legal with a prescription) and some of whom may have been undergoing completely different treatments (like the blood spinning therapy Tiger claims). Galea's possession of HGH in the US was illegal, but his clients' use of it may not have been.

Finally, even _if_ Galea did give Tiger something illegal, that would have occurred after all of his major victories and almost all of his career wins. And even then, this hypothetical use of HGH would have been out of competition and frankly unlikely to have affected Tiger's playing achievements.

I find it a remarkable how you've thrown a bunch of semi-related facts and rumours together and arrived at the conclusion that Tiger's entire career should be invalidated.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by cdnglf

I find it a remarkable how you've thrown a bunch of semi-related facts and rumours together and arrived at the conclusion that Tiger's entire career should be invalidated.

It shouldn't surprise you. It's Haterboy 101. :-)

[ThominOH]

Uh hu.. maybe you should read up on the facts.. Anthony Galea pleaded GUILTY last month July 2011 http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/07/06/anthony-galea-pleads-guilty-drugs_n_891672.html

Where there is smoke, there is fire.. but if you want to be in denial.. oh well, nothing I can do about that..

[iacas]

Originally Posted by ThominOH

Uh hu.. maybe you should read up on the facts.. Anthony Galea pleaded GUILTY last month July 2011 http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/07/06/anthony-galea-pleads-guilty-drugs_n_891672.html

And Tiger was explicitly excluded as a possibly "cheat" (for want of a better word). He had blood spinning done because the guy had a reputation as being good at it, and athletes are funny about their doctors. Additionally, Tiger's been tested two or three times by the PGA Tour. He was even tested during his recovery, IIRC.

Your dislike for Tiger colors your opinion of anything to do with him. You don't have any actual evidence, and again, he hasn't won a major since having blood spinning done by Galea.

[cdnglf]

Quote:

Uh hu.. maybe you should read up on the facts.. Anthony Galea pleaded GUILTY last month July 2011 http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/07/06/anthony-galea-pleads-guilty-drugs_n_891672.html

So? Where in my post did I say he wasn't guilty?

Quote:

Where there is smoke, there is fire.. but if you want to be in denial.. oh well, nothing I can do about that..

The main source of smoke here is you.

[cdnglf]

Quote:

It shouldn't surprise you. It's Haterboy 101. :-)

Back when I used to post on the golf channel discussion board I sometimes got labeled as being anti-Tiger, but I had nothing on this guy.

[ThominOH]

Yeah.. Believe what you want.. and I'll do the same.. Interesting that SI did a poll on this topic, and 71 touring PGA pro's believe Tiger is juicing.. So I guess I'm the only one that questions it.. LOL

I know.. next thing I'll hear is that those 71 PGA pro's are all jealous .. lol

[cdnglf]

Quote:

Interesting that SI did a poll on this topic, and 71 touring PGA pro's believe Tiger is juicing..

Really? I can't say I'm surprised that I can't find your source.

In the 2010 survey, 24% of 71 surveyed players believed Tiger "used HGH or other performance-enhancing drugs".

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1168986/6/index.htm

The question wasn't asked in 2011:

http://www.golf.com/golf/tours_news/article/0,28136,2057288,00.html

[ThominOH]

Originally Posted by cdnglf

Really? I can't say I'm surprised that I can't find your source.

In the 2010 survey, 24% of 71 surveyed players believed Tiger "used HGH or other performance-enhancing drugs".

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1168986/6/index.htm

The question wasn't asked in 2011:

http://www.golf.com/golf/tours_news/article/0,28136,2057288,00.html

Works for me.. ty for the correction.. I was in a hurry to post.. In any case, having fellow PGA tour members believe you are juicing isn't good.. This coming after the Galea drama, then Tiger saying he's clean and the knee is good, but we all know he had a problem with Ambien and Vicodin.. Which is a contradiction in itself.. Sorry, there are just too many things that don't add up.. And I'm sure people will argue about Barry Bonds or Roger Clemens juicing or not..  Both deny it, but I think most suspect it..   Apparently enough that Gillette and Buick told Tiger, "bye bye"..

[cdnglf]

Quote:

In any case, having fellow PGA tour members believe you are juicing isn't good..

Perhaps not, but it was only 24%, none of whom appears to have any actual knowledge of the matter.

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we all know he had a problem with Ambien and Vicodin

We do?

Quote:

And I'm sure people will argue about Barry Bonds or Roger Clemens juicing or not..  Both deny it, but I think most suspect it..

There's way more evidence to suggest they were using PEDs than Tiger.

Quote:

Apparently enough that Gillette and Buick told Tiger, "bye bye"..

Now you're just making stuff up. Buick cut ties with Tiger in late 2008, long before the Galea stuff (or even the infidelity stuff) came to light:

http://www.leftlanenews.com/buick-and-tiger-woods-part-ways-after-nine-years.html

Gillette claims they were ending the sports-related campaign he was associated with. But even if that's just cover, don't you think its much more likely that they got rid of him due to the infidelity scandal, and (even more importantly) the fact that he wasn't winning anymore?

http://content.usatoday.com/communities/gameon/post/2010/12/tiger-woods-dropped-as-endorser-by-gillette/1