Weight Forward and Secondary Axis Tilt

[miami8miami]

What exactly is the difference between real and fake axis tilt? is fake axis tilt when the head moves backwards in the beginning phase of the downswing?

Can fake axis tilt also be caused by the hip slide being done correctly and not enough release of PA 1?

[iacas]

Originally Posted by miami8miami

What exactly is the difference between real and fake axis tilt? is fake axis tilt when the head moves backwards in the beginning phase of the downswing?

Any phase of the downswing.

Originally Posted by miami8miami

Can fake axis tilt also be caused by the hip slide being done correctly and not enough release of PA 1?

Not really. Not with a steady head. If PA1 or 4 are slow to get down then the head may tip back. Then it's faked.

[Limpinswinger]

Originally Posted by sean_miller

If the Matteson video is an example of what people refer to by sliding hips forward the first video makes sense, but it sounds as if it's an active motion during the swing. Matteson isn't exactly driving his hips forward in this video. They're forward at address then don't move much during the swing. In a screen capture at impact they appear driven forward, but other than the slight hip bump every decent player does, his lower body is relatively quiet from address through impact. Is this the point?

That's related to my question in the "sliding the hip" thread about reconciling S&T; with sliding the hips.  Once your hips are forward, there's no more room to move them forward in the downswing.

[mvmac]

Originally Posted by Limpinswinger

That's related to my question in the "sliding the hip" thread about reconciling S&T; with sliding the hips.  Once your hips are forward, there's no more room to move them forward in the downswing.

Yes the hips can only go so far forward, Troy does it differently than Charlie Wi does.  I think Gary Edwin likes to see the "reverse K" set-up that Troy uses.  Just a piece Troy added to ensure that he draws every ball

[Limpinswinger]

Originally Posted by mvmac

Yes the hips can only go so far forward, Troy does it differently than Charlie Wi does.  I think Gary Edwin likes to see the "reverse K" set-up that Troy uses.  Just a piece Troy added to ensure that he draws every ball

The "reverse K" makes a nice mental picture which implies that there is forward hip positioning at address.  This begs the questions: (1) Would it be best to minimize the amount of forward weight distribution/hip positioning at address, and on the takeback, in order to preserve some hip slide in the downswing?  (2) Or, is it not necessary for the hip slide to be a part of the downswing, the hip having already been positioned forward at address or in the takeback?

I'm trying to narrow down some specifics to think about the next time I go to the range.  After learning about the S&T; approach recently, I was at the range for the first time in many years last week.   My address was weight neutral with both knees flexed.  On the backswing, I focused on transferring weight partially forward, bending my left knee and straightening my right knee, and then transferring the rest of my weight on the downswing.  This was a complete departure from my prior technique in which I was taught to flex my right knee and pivot around my right leg.  I hit all of my clubs and hit the ball as well as I could have expected after such a long hiatus.  There were some fat and thin shots.  Many straight shots and some fades to one degree or another.  But, no draws at all.  Consistently hitting the ground in front of the ball was something I didn't do before.  I either picked the ball (most of the time), or I hit it thin or fat.  The idea that such a simple concept would allow me to consistently take a divot in front of the ball, and consistently hit draws, is what got me motivated to get back out.

Since then, I've read about the "hip slide," the "secondary axis," and now, the "reverse K" address.  The reverse K address seems easy enough to incorporate and would eliminate the need to think about bending my left leg and straightening my right during the takeback.  The hip slide and secondary axis seem to be part of the same movement.  But, I suspect that if I start in a reverse K set-up, I won't have much room to execute a hip slide or a secondary axis.  What do you think?

Thanks for reading.

[miami8miami]

So to prevent the head tipping back creating fake axis tilt should you practice releasing PA's 1 and 4 to keep the head steady (assuming there is enough hip slide)?

[mvmac]

Originally Posted by miami8miami

So to prevent the head tipping back creating fake axis tilt should you practice releasing PA's 1 and 4 to keep the head steady (assuming there is enough hip slide)?

Could work.  I'd rather keep the shoulders close to their A4 slant from A4 to A5 to allow PA 4 and 1 to lower.  Can't release them if the left shoulder starts to raise.

[miami8miami]

That's kinda like what Tiger practices during his practice swings. Brian Manzella calls that the carry I'm pretty sure.

Can't you over do that and keep the shoulders steep without unloading 1 and 4 fast enough? If that were the case wouldn't the typical ball flight be lower pulls with a high AoA?

[miami8miami]

When I say high AoA i meant an attack angle that is too negative

[mvmac]

Originally Posted by miami8miami

That's kinda like what Tiger practices during his practice swings. Brian Manzella calls that the carry I'm pretty sure.

Can't you over do that and keep the shoulders steep without unloading 1 and 4 fast enough? If that were the case wouldn't the typical ball flight be lower pulls with a high AoA?

Not as long as the shoulders stay aimed to the right and your putting some pressure into the ground with the forward foot.  Tiger does something completely different, he's swing way more to the left, handle stays low, that's when the aoa wiil be high and so will the spin loft.  I've seen Grant (below) hit a Tourstriker straight up in the air and not take a divot.

[miami8miami]

I think I understand. So what's the difference between keeping the shoulder slants from A4 (post 44 of 47 in this thread) throughout the downswing to what Tiger is trying to do by feeling he is swinging more left?

How do you go about practicing keeping the shoulders in their slant from A4 though the downswing?

[mvmac]

Originally Posted by miami8miami

I think I understand. So what's the difference between keeping the shoulder slants from A4 (post 44 of 47 in this thread) throughout the downswing to what Tiger is trying to do by feeling he is swinging more left?

How do you go about practicing keeping the shoulders in their slant from A4 though the downswing?

[miami8miami]

So ideally should the shoulders rotate at a right angle around your inclination to the ground throughout the entire swing?

[slice_oftheday]

Those are some great videos mvmac, thanks

[mvmac]

Originally Posted by miami8miami

So ideally should the shoulders rotate at a right angle around your inclination to the ground throughout the entire swing?

Yes that would be the easiest way to keep the head steady

[secondary]

Mike,

In that first video Dana is talking about that guy getting up on his right toe and the effect it has on his weight shift and balance.  It seems really opposite to the "banking of the right foot" that is talked about on here often.  Is there something specific to that gentleman that makes that advice valid, or just a difference in opinion compared to 5SK?

[mvmac]

Originally Posted by secondary

Mike,

In that first video Dana is talking about that guy getting up on his right toe and the effect it has on his weight shift and balance.  It seems really opposite to the "banking of the right foot" that is talked about on here often.  Is there something specific to that gentleman that makes that advice valid, or just a difference in opinion compared to 5SK?

It's just the next part of the motion after the foot banks.  For most it's going to be a low priority piece but good to understand how it effects the picture.  Dana is a stickler for the details ;-)  As we continue to rotate the heel is released, we can then have almost all the weight forward and release the pelvis/lumbar spine fully.  Keeping the right heel down for the entire followthrough isn't what we want either, unless it's a drill you're doing.  The pic below is a good example, the heel releases off the ground because of rotation and the knees/thighs coming together.  With the student (Brad) in the video, he has it banked but also trying to go from A8-A10, just needs to put the finishing touches in so he can keep the weight forward and hold his finish.  Dana likes to have his students rehearse the motion correctly and slowly.  Brad is a long time student of Dana's so he can be more detailed and Brad is familiar with it.

In terms of this thread, it's how we keep the 2nd Axis Tilt, keep the hands tracing the arc and keep the body rotating to the finish.

[secondary]

Thanks Mike.  Makes perfect sense.  I am long way from being there but it's nice to know where the road map goes next.