Tebow...who's got the fever?

[LuciusWooding]

They are considered great TEs because the Pats use them so much. You'd have a load of yards and TDs if you and another TE were the only people passed to... I respect Gronkowski and Welker, they are great at what they do, but the team relies on them entirely and could not win 6 games a season without them unless their coach found a new scheme.

Other teams wouldn't just copy the Pats scheme, that's not how it works. Bill had fragments of a team and based the scheme around what they had, and turned out to be a pretty successful scheme. Another coach with different personnel would not and should not build the same offense.

[newtogolf]

C'mon guys you're both over simplifying this.  Gronkowski and Hernendez are great athletes.  They are too fast for linebacks and too big for corners or safeties to cover.  I wanted Gronkowski drag 3 Jets defenders for a 1st down.  The coaches would be crazy not to use these guys to their advantage.

Let's also not forget that Bill drafted these guys it's not like he inherited them.  He built a scheme that showcases his players isn't that what every coach should do?

[boogielicious]

Quote:

Watch any interview of Brady, when he gets asked a question about the upcoming week. He gets a smirk, makes a dismissive comment, and moves on.

Funny, when we see his interviews, we think the exact opposite.  We think he is too nice and complimentary to the other team.  I would like you to show an actual quote of a dismissive comment.  You won't be able to find one unless you call praising your opponent dismissive.  You just hate him because he is not your QB.

As for "system QB", I guess Rogers, P. Manning and Brees are all SYSTEM QB's as well.  I love when fans of the other teams use this poor excuse.  Cassel went 11-5.  That's a five game drop from the previous year.  Denver got, "The System" from McDaniels and promptly proved the "system" is not the only thing.  The Jets and Cleveland had the "System" with Mangini and Crennel.

Guys, life too short to waste energy on hating.  I don't hate your teams.  I just want my team to win.  If they don't, it will be because the other team played better.

[Gioguy21]

newto, gronk and hernandez are average if they have a quarterback who doesn't hit em between the numbers, because he has time. they're BIG guys, that doesn't make them great TE's. look at Graham in NO, the dood catches passes hernandez and gronk couldn't even get up for. ever try to hit a 265 lb target across the middle? let alone 2 of em? they're not THAT great lol...it all comes down to the fact tha tom brady has time and options. how's that made? the system in place makes it such. if any PEOPLE should be given credit, it's that o line. and coaches.

[Gioguy21]

Originally Posted by boogielicious

Funny, when we see his interviews, we think the exact opposite.  We think he is too nice and complimentary to the other team.  I would like you to show an actual quote of a dismissive comment.  You won't be able to find one unless you call praising your opponent dismissive.  You just hate him because he is not your QB.

As for "system QB", I guess Rogers, P. Manning and Brees are all SYSTEM QB's as well.  I love when fans of the other teams use this poor excuse.  Cassel went 11-5.  That's a five game drop from the previous year.  Denver got, "The System" from McDaniels and promptly proved the "system" is not the only thing.  The Jets and Cleveland had the "System" with Mangini and Crennel.

Guys, life too short to waste energy on hating.  I don't hate your teams.  I just want my team to win.  If they don't, it will be because the other team played better.

i'm not hating, i'm just saying they're not as great as people make them out to be...btw, those teams you're mentioning...the jets and cleveland...the systems were crap, and they never stuck with one. and no, i don't classify rogers, manning or brees as system qb's because without them, their teams don't do well (aside from matt flynn b/c he's a damn good backup)...so, your argument doesn't make sense...and as for denver, they had a different type of quarterback and had to change around it. tebow was THAT bad coming in...


if anything, i'm not hating on NE, i'm hating on those from NE who think brady, gronk, hernandez, etc walk on water b/c without the system they had put in place by belicheck (this would be the compliment, not the hate), they would be like the jets, cleveland...belichecks' system is genius.

[newtogolf]

If you think they are average there's not much more to discuss.  Keller, and most of the TE's in the league are average.  Graham is also a great TE.  Hernandez and Gronk combined for 24 TD's and 2400 yards on 169 catches.  Gronk had a higher YPC than Graham.  Brees has time to throw too so by your standards Graham isn't that great either.  When you catch the ball over the middle like these guys have against pro linebackers looking to take your head off you can tell me how easy it is.

Originally Posted by Gioguy21

newto, gronk and hernandez are average if they have a quarterback who doesn't hit em between the numbers, because he has time. they're BIG guys, that doesn't make them great TE's. look at Graham in NO, the dood catches passes hernandez and gronk couldn't even get up for. ever try to hit a 265 lb target across the middle? let alone 2 of em? they're not THAT great lol...it all comes down to the fact tha tom brady has time and options. how's that made? the system in place makes it such. if any PEOPLE should be given credit, it's that o line. and coaches.

[Gioguy21]

Originally Posted by newtogolf

If you think they are average there's not much more to discuss.  Keller, and most of the TE's in the league are average.  Graham is also a great TE.  Hernandez and Gronk combined for 24 TD's and 2400 yards on 169 catches.  Gronk had a higher YPC than Graham.  Brees has time to throw too so by your standards Graham isn't that great either.  When you catch the ball over the middle like these guys have against pro linebackers looking to take your head off you can tell me how easy it is.

...i've been hit by a guy who's been at the combine...how's that? ANYway...should be a great week...GO BIG BLUE

[namkrats]

I think he is a good football player but he is not good at the position he plays which is quarterback. Someone on the KC Chiefs said "its not like tackling an NFL quarterback its more like tackling and NFL running back who can throw every now and then." Have to say I agree with him. Still I really do enjoy Tebowing in the halls at school

[boogielicious]

Quote:

...i've been hit by a guy who's been at the combine...how's that?

That explains your logic.  Matt Flynn sits on the bench for 12 months, comes in at throws for a team record 500+ yards and 6 TDs.  But it's not the system.  He's just Bart Starr jr.  But Brady is a system QB.  Perfect logic.

[Gioguy21]

Originally Posted by boogielicious

That explains your logic.  Matt Flynn sits on the bench for 12 months, comes in at throws for a team record 500+ yards and 6 TDs.  But it's not the system.  He's just Bart Starr jr.  But Brady is a system QB.  Perfect logic.

how does me getting hit by an NFL prospect explain my logic as to a football team system? and you said I had poor logic? hmmm...as for Flynn, you're talking about the same Lions secondary that let up 466 to Brees the next week? oh yea, that's a solid defense to me (11th worst in the NFL in passing yards allowed per game)...

[boogielicious]

Yes, poor logic.  Your logic states that Flynn is a phenomenal QB who just happens to ride the bench, but Brady is an average QB who is just the product of a phenomenal system.  Can't see that as logic.

I was joking that the hit from the NFL prospect may have loosened things up in your thinking (my bad).  It is pointless to debate further.

Good luck Sunday.

[jamo]

This weekend's games should be fun. [quote name="Gioguy21" url="/t/54688/tebow-whos-got-the-fever/36#post_671519"] i'm a giants fan and nothing pisses me off more than giving the PLAYERS on the pats more credit than they deserve. the reason why pats win is for one reason and one reason alone. THE SYSTEM. the play calling and the overall offensive setup with two TE's is the reason they are so powerful. their defense is middle of the road in stats at best, the offensive system is why they win ball games. Brady on any other team...is B in my opinion. Case in point...Cassel. the guy was backup and still won games...why? the plays are designed to nickel and dime, run a few times, and hit deep on strikes up the middle (rarely down the sides, like most teams that have great passers such as brees and rodgers), and almost always to TE's...unless the last name is welker. [/quote] I think you (and many people) are vastly overstating the effect Belichick has on the offense. His fingerprints are all over it, yes, but it's not a crazy complicated scheme. Hell, it can't be, they have a new coordinator every year. Matt Cassel played well because he's a good quarterback. He had a 93 passer rating last year, better than his passer rating with the Pats (FWIW, Brady's rating that year was 111). Do you remember the 2006 season? Brady's weapons were a decrepit Cory Dillon (in his last year), the legendary Laurence Maroney as a rookie RB, Troy Brown in his last real season, the immortal Ben Watson starting at TE, and #1 receiver Reche Caldwell(!!!). Charlie Weis and Romeo Crennel were two years gone, the Manginious was the new head coach of the Jets, Dean Pees was the defensive coordinator, Josh McDaniels was a rookie play caller as the offensive coordinator. That's after David Givens left, after Vinatieri left, after McGinest left, and Brady took that team to within 4 points of the Super Bowl. Brady started off as a pure system quarterback (if anyone were to track screen passes, Brady probably amassed enough over his first four years as a starter to set the career record), yes, but it'd be plain ridiculous to not consider him among the greats of all time at this point. [quote name="Gioguy21" url="/t/54688/tebow-whos-got-the-fever/54#post_671566"] newto, gronk and hernandez are average if they have a quarterback who doesn't hit em between the numbers, because he has time. they're BIG guys, that doesn't make them great TE's. look at Graham in NO, the dood catches passes hernandez and gronk couldn't even get up for. ever try to hit a 265 lb target across the middle? let alone 2 of em? they're not THAT great lol...it all comes down to the fact tha tom brady has time and options. how's that made? the system in place makes it such. if any PEOPLE should be given credit, it's that o line. and coaches. [/quote] Gronkowski is not only a YAC machine, he's made some amazing writhing, contorting catches in the end zone, and nearly snapped his neck diving for a pylon. Plus,[URL=http://fifthdown.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/12/13/rob-gronkowski-and-the-year-of-the-tight-end/] there's this[/URL]: Pro Football Focus thinks he's also the best blocking TE in the league. Hernandez is a different beast, more of a speed guy who is a good weapon on end-arounds (and even straight runs at this point), and is a great compliment to Gronk. Also, how can you, at the same time, deride Gronkowski and Hernandez for being too big (6 ft 6 in and 6 ft 2 in), and at the same time say Jimmy Graham (6 ft 7 in) makes catches that they "couldn't get up for?" Especially since he's catching passes from Drew Brees, your new all-time single-season passing record holder. And, IMO, the Pats O-line is by far the weakest link of the offense. They can get into rhythms (especially when the Patriots go no-huddle), but they're not exactly a group of studs. Matt Light is probably the most overrated player on the team and hasn't been good in years at LT, Makins is downright great at LG, Koppen, the normal starting center was injured in week 1, the starting RG Brian Waters is 12 years into his career, and Vollmer, the second-year RT, has been injured and rookie Nate Solder has gotten much of the time. You could argue the current O-line is worse than the O-line that lost them the Super Bowl against the Giants that never happened. [quote name="boogielicious" url="/t/54688/tebow-whos-got-the-fever/54#post_671620"] That explains your logic.  Matt Flynn sits on the bench for 12 months, comes in at throws for a team record 500+ yards and 6 TDs.  But it's not the system.  He's just Bart Starr jr.  But Brady is a system QB.  Perfect logic. [/quote] That's admittedly not a great argument. Flynn nearly beat the Pats last year and could start for half the teams in the league. Him and Brian Hoyer are probably the two best backups in the league right now, and we'll probably see them both starting next year. I hope that all came out as rational. My Gronk-love is balanced by my downplaying of Belichick's influence, right?

[clubchamp]

Hernandez and Jimmy Graham are great pass catching TE's but to say they are great TE's in general I think would be a reach. None of them can block to save their lives sure they can pick up a DB maybe a LB but overall they aren't good blockers. However they fit they the system they are in and that's all that matters but they would be average TE's on a team that ran the ball. Gronk is the most complete of the 3 being that he is a good downfield blocker. Also keep in mind though that there is definitely other great TEs in the league that aren't used for their pass catching abilities because of the offensive system. Vernon Davis, Kevin Boss, and Zach Miller are all solid TE's that don't get many balls thrown their way because of the system.

Flynn you will probably see starting next year as for Hoyer I think you have a little fan favoritism going. I haven't heard one person say Hoyer is on his way to a starting gig plus I have only seen him very limited times. I honestly don't know if Flynn will pan out since he's only played 2 games and he is surrounded by stud WR so he may end up not having success.

Bottom line is the Pats are good at what they do and that includes getting under peoples skin.

[jamo]

Flynn you will probably see starting next year as for Hoyer I think you have a little fan favoritism going. I haven't heard one person say Hoyer is on his way to a starting gig plus I have only seen him very limited times. I honestly don't know if Flynn will pan out since he's only played 2 games and he is surrounded by stud WR so he may end up not having success.

Michael Lombardi (former front office guy at a number of teams, current NFL Network analyst) is on record as saying that if he was hired as a GM before the year (it was either the 49ers or the Raiders that he was close with), the first thing he would have done would have been trading for Hoyer. Quite honestly, I have no reason to like or dislike Hoyer. You never really want to see your backup on the field ;-), and he's a bit too old to be Brady's successor, when that happens.

[clubchamp]

Originally Posted by jamo

Michael Lombardi (former front office guy at a number of teams, current NFL Network analyst) is on record as saying that if he was hired as a GM before the year (it was either the 49ers or the Raiders that he was close with), the first thing he would have done would have been trading for Hoyer.

Quite honestly, I have no reason to like or dislike Hoyer. You never really want to see your backup on the field , and he's a bit too old to be Brady's successor, when that happens.

I would think with Mallet there Hoyer won't be needed much longer but he has not played enough that any team is going to give him a starting job. Now I'm sure if he gets with the right team he could easily compete and possibly win a starting job but he won't be handed the keys. I like Lombardi as a reporter and he was close with the 49ners because the Raiders never had a GM until today. I do however take his player evaluations with a grain of salt because he was a personnel guy with the raiders which is my team. Granted I will factor in how crazy Al Davis could be but Lombardi also said that Marcus Tuiasosopa and Andrew Walters were both going to be studs. He also said that Jerry Rice had nothing left in the tank when the Raiders signed him so you can understand my skepticism.

Honestly there will be a few teams looking for QB's so he probably has a chance and if Rex Ryan finds reality about Sanchez it could be with the Jets

[LuciusWooding]

I don't think people are fair to Sanchez; he's not a great QB, but he got sacked 39 times instead of 26 from last year. He makes mistakes, but often due to pressure in his face. Add to that the running game was crap this year, the defense was less effective than usual, and the team quit on him 3 weeks before the season ended.

The Jets need to address their issues at the O line, reevaluate their run game, and have a good draft this year. An addition to their pass rush wouldn't hurt, either, but a big guy up front to help Sanchez would go a long way. A second back to help out Greene would be great, but they will also want a new offensive coordinator. Drafting or trading for a QB this year is a bad idea, it'll be too costly and in too much demand. They can get one later if need be, but they need to rebuild the rest of their team and hopefully work with Sanchez to develop him a bit rather than starting over and giving up on getting into the playoffs for 2 years while that guy develops.

[clubchamp]

Originally Posted by LuciusWooding

I don't think people are fair to Sanchez; he's not a great QB, but he got sacked 39 times instead of 26 from last year. He makes mistakes, but often due to pressure in his face. Add to that the running game was crap this year, the defense was less effective than usual, and the team quit on him 3 weeks before the season ended.

The Jets need to address their issues at the O line, reevaluate their run game, and have a good draft this year. An addition to their pass rush wouldn't hurt, either, but a big guy up front to help Sanchez would go a long way. A second back to help out Greene would be great, but they will also want a new offensive coordinator. Drafting or trading for a QB this year is a bad idea, it'll be too costly and in too much demand. They can get one later if need be, but they need to rebuild the rest of their team and hopefully work with Sanchez to develop him a bit rather than starting over and giving up on getting into the playoffs for 2 years while that guy develops.

I haven't watched the Jets a ton but what I did see he just didn't look good at all. I watched a lot of the Miami game and he threw 3 interceptions 2 of which he threw right D linemen at the line. Based on what I've read it sounds like he gets complacent from time to time but that would be more on Rex. If I was the Jets I'd look to bring in someone who would push him for the starting job and I don't mean anyone that expensive but if Jamo is right bring in Hoyer. I would just force Sanchez to have to compete all the time and hope it lights a fire in him.

[newtogolf]

I have season tickets to the Jets, and saw every game.  Sanchez took a step back in his development this year.  Part of it can be blamed on his offensive line as he didn't have much time to throw, part of it can be blamed on the offensive coordinator who is no longer with the team but the rest has to fall on Sanchez.  He makes bad decisions, stares down receivers he's targeting, hasn't developed a touch pass (everything is a rocket) and doesn't check down fast enough.  The only problem with the running game is they didn't call enough running plays, McKnight and Greene can handle the job IMO.

I doubt the Jets would bring in another rookie as they have a limited window to get back to the playoffs and I can't see Rex looking to break in a new inexperienced QB.  If Peyton Manning will come cheap he's probably the only option to take the job from Sanchez otherwise they will bring in another veteran to replace Brunnel as backup.

Originally Posted by clubchamp

I haven't watched the Jets a ton but what I did see he just didn't look good at all. I watched a lot of the Miami game and he threw 3 interceptions 2 of which he threw right D linemen at the line. Based on what I've read it sounds like he gets complacent from time to time but that would be more on Rex. If I was the Jets I'd look to bring in someone who would push him for the starting job and I don't mean anyone that expensive but if Jamo is right bring in Hoyer. I would just force Sanchez to have to compete all the time and hope it lights a fire in him.