sandbaggers

[greenail]

A guy shot a net 63 today, he has a 19 handicap. His two low scores in the past 2 months are 91, 89. He also only posted 4 rounds last month, but he is always playing so he must not be posting everything. He posted 9 in march. I read somewhere the chances of him doing that are > 37000:1. What's the best way to address this sort of thing?

[Q.Q.Quillume]

One thing, the 37,000/1 odds you mentioned are based on the "net differential" and, in my view, that's something that's kind of hard to determine without knowing the formula the USGA uses. It's not literally the difference between par for the course and what they guy shot; it's based on a combination of the course rating and slope (from whatever tees were played) and possibly other factors.

If he shot a net 63 (score of 82 - handicap of 19), the net differential could be 9 or it could be 6 or it could be some other number.

Just to give you an idea, my last few rounds:

Score 82, differential 12.5
Score 86, differential 16.2
Score 82 (adjusted 81), differential 11.6
Score 87, differential 17.1
Score 85, differential 15.3.

All of these scores are from the same course and same tees -- I had an 87 at another course and the differential was 18.8.

So, what I'm trying to say is that it's definitely possible he's cheating, but it's also possible the "net 63" wasn't quite as incredible as it appeared. It's possible he's been taking lessons and the lessons are "taking effect". It's possible he had a "career round". With millions of golf rounds being played, somebody is going to beat the odds, honestly, and shoot that 37,000/1 round.

I think more than just one great score is needed before the guy is branded with the tag of sandbagger, but it's also too early to rule out that possibility.

[marto97]

I entered a men's open tournament a couple years back at my home course. I was an 11 cap at the time. The first day of the tourney I shot a 74 for a net 63. I was new to the course but had played with a few members and at a few men's nights. So they knew how I played. The second day of the tourney I posted an 81, I ended up winning overall low net for the tournament. I took some ribbing but it was all in fun. I guess my point is it's possible but very unlikely if your playing to your cap. I had a career round and it just happened to be in a tournament. I've seen both sides of the coin. Guys that enter only their high scores and guys that only enter their low scores. They are only hurting themselves. Pretty soon the guy who only enters his high scores, no one wants to play with and the guy that only enters his low scores won't play for anything because he can't shot his cap, and always losses. Sandbaggers are everywhere.

[smlxl]

It's hard to gauge how unlikely a round this was without knowing the rating/slope of the course. Assuming your "friend" has a USGA handicap index of 19, different courses (both par 72) change the outrageousness of this scenario quite a bit once you factor in course handicap, rating and slope:

rating/slope: 70.7 / 114
course handicap:19
net 63, gross score:82
gross / net diff.: 11.2 / -7.8
probability: 552:1

rating/slope: 67.8 / 124
course handicap:21
net 63, gross score:84
gross / net diff.: 14.8 / -4.2
probability: 87:1

So, it's worth doing a little math to figure out how unlikely this really was. 87:1 is not out of the realm of possibility, 552:1 probably is :) In any case, he'd likely need to shoot 80 or better to fall into the >37000:1 camp.

Course Handicap calculator: http://www.usga.org/playing/handicap...calculator.asp

USGA Handicap formulas: http://www.usga.org/playing/handicap...ection_10.html

Net differential odds: http://www.usga.org/playing/handicap...eanstable.html

Either way, the appropriate action is probably to bring this up with your committee to see if there's any clear wrongdoing or longer-term changes that can help lead to more accurate handicaps in the future. There's rarely a good reason not to post a score, and sandbagging sure can ruin the fun of competition.

[Cleveland Gunmetal]

I'd be willing to give this guy the benefit of the doubt but obviously you know him better than we do. Depending on the situation I don't think an 82 for a 19 handy is completely outrageous.

I'm not sure what's worse, this or the guy who has a 6 handicap because he cheats his way around the course. Then you get paired with him in a tournament and he shoots a 95, net 89.

[VegasDog]

I agree with the "lessons" theory.
Last summer, I was regularly shooting in the low 90's, and had a 21 cap. I took a block of lessons which fixed a lot of dumb things I was doing almost immediately, and within 2 weeks was shooting closer to 85 (and carded 2 rounds into system of 85). During this time, we had a tournament, and I shot 83, so net 62.
I also saw a guy in my flight at a different event with a 16 shoot a 77. Everyone can have a good day sometimes. (she shot 90 the next day, though!)
It all evens out in the end, you have to hope.
(I think the real lesson of my store is that I should go back to taking lessons!)

[$2 Nassau]

I'd be willing to give this guy the benefit of the doubt but obviously you know him better than we do. Depending on the situation I don't think an 82 for a 19 handy is completely outrageous.

I'd let it slide as well, but if it becomes a trend then you have a problem. Is he new to the game and things are just starting to click? Just starting to really improve?

I'd be more concerned about the 9 handicapper that shoots a 72.

[greenail]

19 course handicap, 71.3 course rating, 130 slope,diff for an 82 is 9.3

also this isn't the first time.

[North49]

It is completely possible for a 19 to shoot an 82. He must have made a bunch of long putts, hit a few good drives and avoid penalties. It can happen. I know when I break 80, all the guys I play with are impressed. This weekend had a 76, but then came right back with an 87. It's a fickle game.

[Q.Q.Quillume]

Last week a "20" I know shot 84 net 64 ; today he shot 105 net 85 .

So, maybe the question is what did the guy who shot 82 shoot in his next round, or two or three? A couple more low-80s rounds and you have a certifiable bagger. A couple of low-90s or so and he just had a great day when he came in at 82.

[greenail]

he shot an 84 in a tourney? Most hight handicaps don't even shoot close to their handicap in a tourney, if they actualy play by the rules of golf.

A handicap is supposed to represent a players true potential, that's why you only should shoot to your handicap once every 4 or 5 rounds.

Since everyone who has posted seems to think you should be able to shoot -9 in a tourney, at what point would you think someone is a sandbagger? -10, -11? Does anyone else have a confirmed sandbagger story?

[smlxl]

Numbers only tell half of the story, but a handicap index as low as 16.1 has a course handicap of 19 with a rating/slope of 71.3/130 -- ROUND(16.1*130/113,0). That still puts his odds at an astounding -- but not impossible -- 552:1.

I do hope you have some luck in exposing him, and making future tournaments a bit more fair.

[NM Golf]

Here is another awful story of extreme sandbagging. Yesterday I played in a Las Vegas scramble. For those of you who don't know what that is, everyone hits a drive, you pick the best drive and everyone hits from that spot. From there you play your own ball in and record an individual score. So in essence it is kind of like a scramble combined with a four man best ball. Your team score was the two best individual scores for the hole. Anyway I shot 72 which wasn't too bad. I am a 2 handicap. A 24 handicap shot 72 also. Yes a 24 handicap tied me scratch. He beat the 3 handicap and the 10 handicap in his own group. What a friggin cheater. The 18 handicap in our group shot 79 and played really well. I couldn't believe it.

[iacas]

Here is another awful story of extreme sandbagging. Yesterday I played in a Las Vegas scramble. For those of you who don't know what that is, everyone hits a drive, you pick the best drive and everyone hits from that spot. From there you play your own ball in and record an individual score. So in essence it is kind of like a scramble combined with a four man best ball. Your team score was the two best individual scores for the hole. Anyway I shot 72 which wasn't too bad. I am a 2 handicap. A 24 handicap shot 72 also. Yes a 24 handicap tied me scratch. He beat the 3 handicap and the 10 handicap in his own group. What a friggin cheater. The 18 handicap in our group shot 79 and played really well. I couldn't believe it.

Maybe the 24 handicapper just can't drive for shit?

I doubt it, I know, just joking...

[NM Golf]

Maybe the 24 handicapper just can't drive for shit?

Someone else said that.

If so he must be the worst driver of the golfball in the history of golf. Jeez you would think he would learn to hit a hybrid off the tee if his driver was costing him 24 shots a round!

[bayareamtnbiker]

Playing "all the time" and not posting scores is cheating, whether or not you take money. Of course, assuming people keep score honestly requires a certain amount of naiveté. The old "everyone does it" mentality.

http://www.ucgc.org/posting_match_play_scores.htm
The posting of Match Play scores is REQUIRED by the NCGA/USGA Handicap System, it is not optional.

[VegasDog]

[QUOTE=NM Golf;48778]Here is another awful story of extreme sandbagging. Yesterday I played in a Las Vegas scramble. For those of you who don't know what that is, everyone hits a drive, you pick the best drive and everyone hits from that spot. From there you play your own ball in and record an individual score.

We here in Vegas call that a Shamble!
(I would also call a 24 who shoots par a SHAM.)

[ILLZ]

I'd be willing to give this guy the benefit of the doubt but obviously you know him better than we do. Depending on the situation I don't think an 82 for a 19 handy is completely outrageous.

Agreed. I'm a 19.5 right now and in my last 3 rounds I've put down 41, 42, or 43 on either the front or the back 9's, to go along with a 49, 48, and a 46. If a guy can shoot a 42 (which he CAN plausibly do if he's a 19), he can easily shoot TWO 42's back to back.