What exactly is a pitch?

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Brunogolf

After watching the clips closer I see the need for the extra move in body is used to slow the club down.  Because of the excessive hinge you need to kick your right foot inorder to slow the club down.

Bruno, I'm now convinced that you don't know what you're talking about regarding these videos . There's no excessive hinge. The clubhead continues to accelerate until impact. The contact is really, really tolerant, trajectory and distance control is a snap, and the legs barely move. I don't know what you're looking at.

Go read Stan Utley's books or something. Everyone hits pitches with some amount of wrist hinging and rotation of their torso. Even Phil Mickelson says " hinge and hold" (though he doesn't really do the "hold" part except on chips).

Furthermore, you've offered nothing in the way of your own ideas on how to hit a pitch shot, simply making guesses at flaws with this method which, in practice, do not exist.

[Brunogolf]

In your vids you have far to much rotation and rightside release.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Brunogolf

In your vids you have far to much rotation and rightside release.

Ooh, I can play this game.

"No, we don't" plus infinity times infinity period with no more infinities.

[Brunogolf]

Ok the flaws are in the rotation and right foot release.   Simply open your stance and don't flare the left foot so much this will preset you left so no reason to move there and movement is the issue as to why players don't get better.  Swing it on a single path so the club does not have to move so abrubtly up and inside.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Brunogolf

Simply open your stance and don't flare the left foot so much

You can do those things. I open my stance sometimes. Flaring the left foot is not a bad thing though. It encourages rotation, which in this motion, is how you hit the golf ball. Again, see Stan Utley's books. His method is similar.

Originally Posted by Brunogolf

this will preset you left so no reason to move there and movement is the issue as to why players don't get better.

There is no real movement to the left in this pitch. Your weight starts, say, 70/30 left or 60/40 left and simply stays there. The hands (a little) and the clubhead (more so) swing to the right and through to the left. You pivot slightly, barely at all for short pitches and more for longer pitches (again, you can pitch a ball 80 yards, so good luck not having "movement" in an 80 yard pitch).

Originally Posted by Brunogolf

Swing it on a single path so the club does not have to move so abrubtly up and inside.

It doesn't move abruptly inside with this motion. And I don't know where you get that this isn't on a "single path." The clubhead travels up and down a virtually identical plane with this method.

Tell you what, Bruno - you keep doing it your way, and we'll keep doing it ours. I'm comfortable and happy with the method we teach, and so has every student we've taught. Not a single complaint - to the contrary, many students have told us that it was worth the price of admission to our full day schools alone.

That's enough thread hijacking for today. :-)

[bunkerputt]

Originally Posted by Brunogolf

Ok the flaws are in the rotation and right foot release.   Simply open your stance and don't flare the left foot so much this will preset you left so no reason to move there and movement is the issue as to why players don't get better.  Swing it on a single path so the club does not have to move so abrubtly up and inside.

So long as the head and weight stays in the same spot and the hands aren't flipping and rolling, what does it matter that there's movement?  Movement in itself isn't a compensation.  Certain types may be, but you have to move some.  Are you talking about moving the head left here?

[james_hirshfield]

I would like to ask a very simple question, and those with the correct answer understand how some of this works.

When hitting a wedge shot, and a golfer moves the ball back in their stance.... why did someone like Lee Trevino aim further left?

[mvmac]

Quote:

After watching the clips closer I see the need for the extra move in body is used to slow the club down.  Because of the excessive hinge you need to kick your right foot inorder to slow the club down.

IMHO this is way to much motion and would lead to serious inconsistencies under any kind of pressure and just too much effort really for a simple shot.  Why not just take the legs right out of it and switch clubs according to the shot you want to hit?  And there is a huge difference in run out from an LW to PW so the 14 clubs is a silly argument.

Also what would you do if the lie was poor there is no chance you would move that much as contact needs to be so perfect.

You are certainly entitled to your opinions but this is how the best players do it and have learned it from the best instructors, Stan Utley, Mike Adams from Edel Golf, Phil Rodgers, Seve/Mac O'Grady, James Sieckmann.  Allowing the club head to swing and engage the bounce makes these shots much easier to hit.  Weight always needs to be forward, how would you go about hitting a pitch from a putting green and not take a divot.  Can't have the weight back, can't use the bounce, weight forward, soft arms and "thump" the ground.

Here's Mike Adams explaining poor pitching technique

In Adams’ 35 years of experience teaching golf, he’s noticed that many of his students have developed flaws in their wedge technique as a result of using too little bounce in their wedges.

“Everybody was hanging back on their right foot,” Adams said. “It wasn’t just amateurs. It was low handicappers and Tour players. Players would hit chunks trying to increase the bounce and loft on their wedges.”

Simply put, bounce angle indicates how far the leading edge of a club is off the ground when the club is soled. Zero degrees of bounce means that a club’s sole rests flat on the ground. The more bounce a club has, the farther the leading edge is off the ground. Bob Vokey, one of the most renowned wedge designers in the world, says that bounce acts similarly to the rudder on a ship if it were turned sideways, helping the sole glide through the turf or sand as it moves through the ground. But if a ship nose-dives into the water, the rudder becomes of little assistance. Likewise, if the bounce on a wedge is placed too far back of the leading edge, it is not able to engage and help the wedge glide through the turf. The wedge will dig.

Check out the 15:00 min mark

[Brunogolf]

The above posts seem almost rude.  For the Trevino comment that clip says exactly what I am and he said he aimed further left so he was clear thru impact.  But Trevino is one to change his mind about what he did or was going to do......  It's funny how S&t; guys get their panties in a knot over everything and anything that is not from the book.

[Stretch]

It's funny how you're now going ad hominem just because everybody doesn't automatically agree with you. Your way's better, great! Can we have some more details, video, whatever? Make your case and help the masses.

[uttexas]

I would like to ask a very simple question, and those with the correct answer understand how some of this works. When hitting a wedge shot, and a golfer moves the ball back in their stance.... why did someone like Lee Trevino aim further left?

Dplane move the ball back=club approaching ball more out and more down (steeper) this would encourage a push draw with Trevino's in to out swing path+ open club face. Trevino favored the baby straight push, so if he would aim further left (stance line more left), which would, in effect the club would approach the ball less out=straight push --ball starts slightly right due to open club face but doesn't daw back due to effective path less in to out.

[cbrian]

Originally Posted by Brunogolf

The above posts seem almost rude.  For the Trevino comment that clip says exactly what I am and he said he aimed further left so he was clear thru impact.  But Trevino is one to change his mind about what he did or was going to do......  It's funny how S&t; guys get their panties in a knot over everything and anything that is not from the book.

Dude, listen, you are trying to prove Erik, Michael, etc. wrong. You are the one that started this, not them. If you feel like you have a better way to do it then fine, that is your opinion and good for you. However, when you try to call someone out or poke holes in something, you can't then turn around and say they are rude when they give backing to what they teach.

My opinion on your argument is that I don't understand what you are talking about. In my opinion there is minimal movement in what the Golf Evo guys teach (which is similar to what a lot of short game instructors teach). You talk about wrist hinge being a problem, but then you say that Trevino is demonstrating what you believe in. Do you not see the wrist hinge in his action?

As for the part about S&T;, I'm not sure you understand. This conversation, as far as I'm concerned, has extremely little to do with S&T.; Priorities are different, thus the action is going to be different.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Brunogolf

The above posts seem almost rude.

Originally Posted by Brunogolf

For the Trevino comment that clip says exactly what I am and he said he aimed further left so he was clear thru impact.

Thanks. Trevino talks about and does what we teach and have been explaining in this thread.

Originally Posted by Brunogolf

It's funny how S&t; guys get their panties in a knot over everything and anything that is not from the book.

What book? The S&T; book? Because if that's what you mean, then this is almost directly the opposite. Absolutely NONE of this is from "the book." If you mean Stan Utley's book, then I agree that a lot is similar, but we have our own ways of thinking about things, feeling things, and teaching things. But at least it's similar. Perhaps it's time to check your own panties for knots, Bruno.

And Rich, James's post was off topic. I think he said something about just rolling out of bed when he made that post. It's not relevant to pitching. :)

[lostmyballs]

Hey Bruno thanks for hijacking my thread!

I appreciate all the videos that have been posted here, they are quite informative. I have never even taken bounce into the equation before now!

Here is a follow-up question I was hoping could get discussed:

What are the mechanical differences between a flop and a pitch? I know that, conceptually, a flop has no run but a pitch does, but what makes a shot flop rather than pitch, and vice versa?

Thanks again!

Still searching,

lostmyballs

[iacas]

Originally Posted by lostmyballs

Hey Bruno thanks for hijacking my thread!

I appreciate all the videos that have been posted here, they are quite informative. I have never even taken bounce into the equation before now!

Here is a follow-up question I was hoping could get discussed:

What are the mechanical differences between a flop and a pitch? I know that, conceptually, a flop has no run but a pitch does, but what makes a shot flop rather than pitch, and vice versa?

Thanks again!

Thanks for steering it back on topic. Let's go this way (again).

The mechanical differences? I wouldn't say there are any except that a flop is an "extreme" pitch. To do that you'll put the ball pretty far forward, lower your hands quite a bit, open your stance quite a bit, and do everything possible to increase loft on the clubface as it is delivered to the ball.

[applejr]

Originally Posted by iacas

Thanks for steering it back on topic. Let's go this way (again).

The mechanical differences? I wouldn't say there are any except that a flop is an "extreme" pitch. To do that you'll put the ball pretty far forward, lower your hands quite a bit, open your stance quite a bit, and do everything possible to increase loft on the clubface as it is delivered to the ball.

I've just recently started pitching this way, so I'm still learning. But when I was messing around with lob shots, I did this. Hands real low, open face more, keep hands low through takeaway. It'll get it high, now I need to work on accuracy.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by applejr

I've just recently started pitching this way, so I'm still learning. But when I was messing around with lob shots, I did this. Hands real low, open face more, keep hands low through takeaway. It'll get it high, now I need to work on accuracy.

Yeah, "lobs" (extreme pitches) are a "last resort" kind of move. Most people would be better off pitching to 10-15 feet and trying to make that putt. Or pitching to 20 feet. Or 30 feet... ;-)

[james_hirshfield]

Nice posts guys,

Yes, I would say a flop has almost 95% carry with very little forward, if none and has very little forward momentum at all.

Face would be most open, with most flexing rates of elbows and wrists to keep most loft on the club and most bounce.

Won't find that in the book.

Erik, that "oh really" picture had me in STITCHES!