Handicap question

[sacm3bill]

Originally Posted by zeg

Rather than blustering about this on the net, someone who has played mostly 18 hole rounds should compute their handicap indexes three ways. First, using the standard method with all the 18 hole rounds (i.e., the number you probably already know). Then re-calculate using only the front-9 scores, combined using the rules for 9-hole scores, and then again using only the back-9 scores. There may be a difference, but I don't think it's going to be as big as people are guessing.

I think there's only one person in this thread who feels there'd be a difference.

Originally Posted by szaino

I thought that I was being helpful.

A USGA golf handicap is a very specific set of rules and calculations, which are available at the USGA website, and can be set up on an excel spreadsheet if you want to do it yourself. Or go to a free on line calculator.

In my eyes there really is no in between. That is why I say do whatever you want. If you don't want to go through the actual calculations and rules for an actual "handicap", then just keep track of your average 9 hole scores as a gauge for how you are doing. You will ultimately find that anything short of an actual USGA  "handicap" calculation will only raise more and more questions as to whatever hybrid average it is that you are coming up with.

Your original question here regarding 9 hole scores is totally covered in the USGA handicapping system.

As the OP stated, he knows that doubling the 9-hole score is not the correct way, so asked what the correct way was. A simple question with a simple answer: Combine consecutive nine-hole rounds.

I think this thread got off on the wrong foot when people started referencing two different things: What the OP is currently doing (doubling the 9-hole score) is incorrect, and I guess that's what some of you are objecting to.  I'm not sure why any felt the need to object, since the OP clearly stated in his first post that he knows that's wrong.  That being the case, I thought some of you were objecting to the (correct) process of combining the 9-hole rounds.  (Maybe some of you still are, I don't know.)

In your first post though szaino, you said that if the handicap is not official, then "do whatever you want" because it won't be a "real handicap as measured by the USGA".  The OP's definition of "official" was "posted through a recognized club".  I think you mistook his definition of "official" as "a system that uses the accepted formulas". I think we can all agree that you can use the accepted formulas and get a precise measurement of your handicap without having it be "official" in the sense of posting it through a club.  You seemed to be saying that if you don't go through a club, then "Do whatever you want because it won't be a real handicap". That's what I was objecting to. Sorry if I misunderstood you.

[rustyredcab]

Originally Posted by Ernest Jones

... I don't need an "official" handicap as I am miles away from being ready to compete in a tournament setting but I'd like to have a reasonably accurate idea of what my handicap is.

Thanks in advance...

I wish more people agreed with me (about a lot of things BTW) that having a legit/official handicap is about way more than tournaments. A friendly game with your buddies is far from a tournament. Even my Saturday two-point game for fifty cents a point is more fun when everyone has a legitimate handicap. Peer review confirms that everyone remembered to enter their scores. And I've been witness to, and even done it myself, when a guy shoots the round of his life and wins a few bucks AND the admiration of friends old and new. Without a real handicap, somebody always suspects the guy is a sandbagger.

IMHO, a sanctioned handicap is a cost of being a grown up member of the golf community. The cost is about the same as a new shirt. Often, it is not about the money. I've offered to pay for a teacher friend of mine's handicap. It took three years and he finally started one -- and paid himself.

[Ernest Jones]

Originally Posted by Shorty

I really don't see the point in doing this.

Fact is, if you post a 9 hole score, 9 other holes are being made up.

A round of golf is 18 holes, and a handicap relates to 18 holes of golf.

What you propose to do doesn't account for nerves kicking on the last few holes when you're playing well and the odd blow out hole.

Not saying that software won't calculate it, but it's not going to be reflective of proper rounds.

It might be different if someone plays 18 holes 95% of the time.

I can't tell you how many times I've ruined a round on the last 2 or three holes.

This is why I asked the question in the first place.

Originally Posted by Shorty

My thought is that recreational golfers should be scoring properly and not worrying too much about a quasi handicap that doesn't reflect their abilities.

I try to be as diligent as my knowledge permits in this regard, simply because it's hard enough to shave off that one or two strokes and I want to be aware of the fact I did it. Put another way, if I don't count strokes for whatever reason I won't be able to enjoy the fact that I've eliminated the wasted strokes at a later date.

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

That's just flat out incorrect. There's no reason why you can't use the same formula as the USGA uses to get what your handicap *would* be if it was official.

Exactly. I don't see any need to pay some organisation for the right to maintain a handicap if I'm not going to use it to enter tournaments at this point in my golfing 'career'. If at a later date I'm confident enough in my swing to enter competitive rounds I would be more inclined to establish an "official" handicap. For the time being I am content to compete with myself and the course, no need to compare my scores with anyone else.

[mdl]

Quote:

Rather than blustering about this on the net, someone who has played mostly 18 hole rounds should compute their handicap indexes three ways. First, using the standard method with all the 18 hole rounds (i.e., the number you probably already know). Then re-calculate using only the front-9 scores, combined using the rules for 9-hole scores, and then again using only the back-9 scores. There may be a difference, but I don't think it's going to be as big as people are guessing.

This is a good idea.  I've always "felt" that I score better on the back nine, after I've settled in and figured out what's working that day and whatnot.  But I've never actually taken the time to try calculating a front-nine handicap and a back nine handicap.  Would be instructive.  I bet you're right that in the end the difference wouldn't be that big for me, but I bet there are people for whom it would be significant, ie more than a stroke.

[k-troop]

I for one average 2 shots better on the back nine (except when I shoot par or better on the front--then it's nearly always worse on the back).

I just signed up for MyScorecard, but I want to make it official.  How do I join one of them clubs?  The only time I've ever kept a handicap was when I was playing at one club, and then I'd just input into the computer in the locker room.

[Dormie1360]

Hi,

Okay, just read this thread.  Some good info, some bad.  I can speak for the GHIN system.  As far as 9 hole scores, you need the 9 hole slope/rating.  If it's a course with a USGA slope/rating it has 9 hole ratings for both the front and back.  As has been mentioned they can, and very often are slightly different.  If you belong to a club, or use a club with a GHIN posting computer and don't see an option for posting 9 hole scores it's because the club has not "turned on" this option.  Ask your club to provide this option.  As an alternative you can go to GHIN.com and post there.  They have all their rated courses listed, and  you can select 9 holes and whether front and back.

The only thing I am not sure of is whether your club has to ask it's association to authorize on-line posting for it's members before you can post on-line.  This used to be the case, not sure if it still is.

9 hole scores will be combined in the order that they are played.  They can not be posted as "T" or tournament scores.  If a 9 hole score is older than the most recent 20 scores it will be dropped.

The USGA has no data that I am aware of suggesting that 9 hole scores are swayed higher or lower because you are either not warmed up, or you play worse at the end of an18 hole round.

A couple of other things which many may not know.  If you play at least 7 holes you are required to post a 9 hole score.  If you play at least 13 holes you are required to post an 18 hole score.  For the holes you did not finish, give yourself Par plus any handicap strokes that you would have gotten on that hole.  So, for example lets say you do not finish the last hole because of darkness.  It's a par 4 with a handicap of 10.  So if you are less than a 10 handicap you would not get a shot.  Your score would be 4 for the hole.  If you're handicap is 10 - 27, you would get 1 shot so give yourself a 5 for the hole.  A 28 handicapper would get 2 shots on the 10 handicap hole so they would put down a 6.  Do this for all the holes you didn't play.

As far as how to get a USGA handicap here's a link with some information.

http://www.usga.org/handicapping/get_handicap/Getting-A-Handicap/

Regards,

John

[Beachcomber]

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

Yep, but other than a course I play with 3 nines, I don't think I've ever seen the 9-hole slope and ratings on the scorecards at any course I've played (maybe it's a regional thing) - so if they're not on the scorecard, you can ask someone in the pro shop. (Or they're also often in the computer where you enter scores in the pro shop - obviously you're not entering scores in that computer since you don't have a member number, but you still may be able to get to the screen with the slopes/ratings.)

You're right... Typically the slope/rating are for the 18 holes.  But I use the SCGA online system and it automatically combines and calculates for me.  And has the proper slopes and ratings defined by the 9 I played.

[turtleback]

Originally Posted by Shorty

I really don't see the point in doing this.

Fact is, if you post a 9 hole score, 9 other holes are being made up.

A round of golf is 18 holes, and a handicap relates to 18 holes of golf.

What you propose to do doesn't account for nerves kicking on the last few holes when you're playing well and the odd blow out hole.

Not saying that software won't calculate it, but it's not going to be reflective of proper rounds.

It might be different if someone plays 18 holes 95% of the time.

I can't tell you how many times I've ruined a round on the last 2 or three holes.

Fact is, if you play 9 holes and don't post the score you are not following the handicap rules.  No matter what you think of 9-hole scores.

Just as you must post an 18-hole score whenever you play at least 13 holes.  If you play 7-12 holes you must post a 9-hole score.  If you play less than 7 holes you cannot post any score.  And the handicap rules provide how you are to determine the scores that are to be posted in those situations.  These are the rules, if you want to have a "real" handicap.

[Dormie1360]

You have to understand that yes the GHIN system is trying to compute the most accurate handicap that they can, but there is another reason for some of the rules.  Unfortunately that's, cheating.  Not only are the rules designed to give you an accurate handicap but they are also designed to prevent players a means to manipulate their handicap.

I don't think anyone would argue that actually playing a hole isn't more accurate than not, however with out the rule, it does give some people a way to get out of posting a round that they don't want to post. The folks at GHIN have spent a lot of years figuring out a system that trys to give everyone the most accurate handicap possible, which unfortunately includes both honest and not so honest golfers.

That's why the USGA does not allow individuals to maintain a handicap without joining a "Club".  One of the cornerstone of their system is "Peer Review" of posted scores.  They want golfers to have to be accountable for the scores that they post.

Another requirement a lot of golfers are not aware of is Match Play scores.  You are required to post all scores played under Match Play rules.  When a hole is conceded, count the number of strokes that you have made so far and then add the number of strokes that you would most likely need to finish the hole more than half the time.

Example:   You are on the green in two strokes, 15 feet from the hole, and your opponent who is in the bunker laying 7, concedes the hole.  If more than half the time you would take two more putts from 15 feet, add two strokes and give yourself a 4 for the hole.  People think that because your putt was conceded from 15 feet, you have to put down a 3 on the card, which obviously isn't fare.  For posting purposes you don't do this.  You do what's reasonable.

If the Match ends early, you can finish out the round or stop and put down scores for the remaining holes like we talked about, par plus any handicap strokes.

Regards,

John

[rustyredcab]

I like to think of peer review as a way to remind my buddies that they have yet to post their scores and a way for me to prepare strokes on the card before getting to the course. Manipulating handicaps sounds so negative (even if it is sometimes true). I like "accountability" better. Excellent point about conceded holes.

[Dormie1360]

Originally Posted by rustyredcab

Manipulating handicaps sounds so negative (even if it is sometimes true).

Yeah I'm jaded.  I've been the chairman of our Club's Handicap committee for the past 7 years.  I've heard and seen it all.

Regards,

John

[Golfingdad]

A couple of other things which many may not know.  If you play at least 7 holes you are required to post a 9 hole score.  If you play at least 13 holes you are required to post an 18 hole score.  For the holes you did not finish, give yourself Par plus any handicap strokes that you would have gotten on that hole.  So, for example lets say you do not finish the last hole because of darkness.  It's a par 4 with a handicap of 10.  So if you are less than a 10 handicap you would not get a shot.  Your score would be 4 for the hole.  If you're handicap is 10 - 27, you would get 1 shot so give yourself a 5 for the hole.  A 28 handicapper would get 2 shots on the 10 handicap hole so they would put down a 6.  Do this for all the holes you didn't play.

This is fantastic!  I had no idea.  Not that I play late in the day a lot, but if/when I do, I speed up to finish before dark just to get an official round in, and inevitably my play suffers because of it.  Now I can play at a normal pace, and know that that score won't be "wasted."  (For HDCP purposes)

Thanks John.

[BigT]

I found a handcap caculator on my phone, it has a feature to add a course and its slop and rating and yes it does calculates for 9 . I use as a training aid, kind of like weighing myself.

If someone at my course tells me that I have violated the handicap code of ethics and the grand wizard of golf  will punish me I will probally stick my phone up his nose.

What you seek is a guide and somewhat accurate one at that, try some apps or suggested places and find one that fits your needs.

One thing I did different on my score card is track FIR, Putts and shot inside 100yards instead of GIR. It really helped my strack impovement on one of my week spots.

Happy swinging