Are you getting the most out of your lessons?

[HeadGolfool]

Quote:

Three reasons.

1) 14% of golfers take lessons. So good luck to the 86%.

2) Of the 14% who take lessons, an obscenely large chunk of them are taking lessons from schmucks.

3) Of those who are left, some of them don't practice. They attend a lesson, think they've "got it," and don't put in any effort after the lesson. They play better for awhile and then go right back to their old habits.

So according to your stats that few golfers will ever get better as they don't take lessons or aren't committed enough to do what it takes to improve.  Which pretty much was my point.  For all those other of the majority I am just advocating a way for them to shoot better scores.

Quote:

The bold part I never said. I just think that hitting the ball 135-150 consistently (something a guy shooting 95 isn't guaranteed to do very "consistently") isn't really playing golf, and you're going to be limited to shooting scores in the 90s or, on good days, the upper to mid 80s. If that's your goal, great. But I think it's a bit of hooey to call hitting nothing longer than an 8-iron "course management" and an even bigger bit of hooey to call that "improving" at golf.

I never said that all golfers had to do was hit an nothing longer than 8 iron, there are many high handicappers that can be quite consistent with a 5-6 iron or Hybrids.  For golfers that shoot in the 90's that with better course management can easily shoot in the 80's, are improving at golf better than the majority of golfers you say don't take lessons or practice if they do.  Never seen a score card where you mark what club you hit to shoot the score you posted.  It's obviously a choice golfers have to make for themselves.  If they aren't going to take lessons from someone other than a schmuck and their not going to practice if they do, they can continue the play the way the way they are or learn another technique even if it doesn't consist of hitting the ball longer and all the things low handicappers do.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by HeadGolfool

So according to your stats that few golfers will ever get better as they don't take lessons or aren't committed enough to do what it takes to improve.  Which pretty much was my point.  For all those other of the majority I am just advocating a way for them to shoot better scores.

I see "shooting better scores" as different than "improving at golf." It may (or it may not - I haven't seen any empirical evidence from you) "improve golf scores" but it's not, to me at least, "improving at golf." Additionally, I could suggest several ways people could shoot better scores - including moving up two sets of tees.

Also, I didn't say "few golfers will ever get better." If golfers aren't getting better as a whole, theoretically that could mean that half are getting better while half are getting worse. Half of all golfers is more than "few golfers." I don't have numbers to put on it, and so I think it's dangerous to start saying "few golfers."

For many of the 86% of golfers who don't take lessons I imagine golf is purely a recreational activity. They don't care to take lessons. They simply enjoy being outside, gambling, drinking beer, hanging out with their friends, whatever. They are content to shoot 92 with gimmes and drops and whatnot. Again, good for them.

But of those who want to actually improve, your system strikes me as a short-term solution that may or may not have much effect. Course management only goes so far when golfers fat, shank, blade, slice, and hook half of their shots.

And again, I've already said that course management is a good way to improve. I simply believe that in the long term, people will improve at golf more by improving at their golf swing, their short game, their putting, etc. than by improving their course management.

Additionally, as an instructor, a lot of what I do is "course management" counseling. A student who understands his swing will know how to manage his misses, for example, which makes course management simpler. Understanding what shots they hit well and what shots they don't hit well is part of course management as well. So again, I agree that course management is an important aspect, and an aspect of the game that most coaches and instructors under-emphasize.

If I've over-stated your reliance on the 135-yards-and-straight strategy, I apologize. If you only prescribe that in the rarest of cases, cool. Course management as a whole is a good thing, and I hope the things I've said haven't sounded as if I do not believe that.

[WUTiger]

I was self-taught in the early years, and took my first lesson in my 20s. Some pros I clicked with, others I didn't. Also, I saw some vastly different approaches to trying to hit the little round ball.

The first lesson I had was Chicago in 1974 with an 80-year-old pro born in St. Andrews, Scotland. He showed me the "drag and cock" method for a slow, controlled swing. It didn't take.

A few months later, I took a lesson from a English-born pro, which really helped me out - short, crisp backswing, took 8 strokes off my game in a month. Turns out that was about the last lesson he ever gave. Tried to schedule a followup, and he had switched to selling insurance. Said he was sick of whiny amateurs who never improve.

Found another pro, some progress after two lessons, but he got a job at a local country club - contract said he could teach members only.

Around 1986 found a pro who with whom I had three lessons over six months. Was making progress, then came back from a business trip and found a new management firm had taken over the club, and fired the pro. He left town for a new job already.

Several other pros scattered here and there - I moved several times in the 1970s and 1980s. With exception of English pro, club pro, and fired pro, most had a "quick fix" orientation. About 2000, I decided to rebuild from scratch. For some reason, the three pros seemed to be much more "on the same page" than earlier pros. I started working on fundamentals, and started seeing video clips of my swing.

Basically, here's what the pro-amateur team needs:

• common goals - Pointing in the same direction: Quick fix or swing building?
• decent relationship - Do you get along and communicate with each other
• improvement pattern - Does the amateur make improvement? Does the amateur know how to practice? Can the pro transfer his principles to different golfers? Can he tease out the inner swing , or does he push one size fits all?

Lots of golfers I know take lessons, and intend to practice, but don't. Lots of people think that if you can't spend two hours on the range, it's not worht it. I have a better swing when I pick up a club about three times a week and just do something. I might hit a small bucket with 5 and 7 iron, or spend a half hour on my short game or putting. Or, it might be swing drills at home without actually hitting balls. And, practicing has become easier with video clip lesson summaries: You can review Tuesday's lesson before Thursday's practice time.

*** Only picked up a club about once a week last summer, and saw my HDCP jump five shots. ***

My most recent pro says that he gives some people the same exact lesson three times in the same summer - they never practice, so they have the same lesson every time.

[ev780]

According to Malcolm Gladwell it take 10,000 hours to master a task.  That is a lot of practice and most amatuers will never get close to that number.  For some perspective that 5 years at 40 hours per week!

[Harmonious]

All one has to do is walk along any driving range, and there will be person after person who either has never taken a lesson, or has taken a lesson but has ignored it. Off-balance, overswinging, reverse pivots, all arms/no body, the list of faults goes on and on.  Yet these folks persist in their attempt to improve by ingraining bad swings.

Once the bad habits get formed (and we all have them) it does take a lot of work to eliminate or reduce them.  Most folks don't want to devote that amount of time and effort. It's much more fun just to go out and play (but still complain about their game).

With all the information disseminated daily here by members of the "50 instructors in the world who know what they are talking about" or "the 5% of instructors who aren't crap", why isn't everyone here a scratch player?  Because it does take effort, and sometimes even that effort isn't close to enough.

[WUTiger]

Quote:

According to Malcolm Gladwell it take 10,000 hours to master a task.  That is a lot of practice and most amatuers will never get close to that number.  For some perspective that 5 years at 40 hours per week!

Gladwell's 10K hours is an interesting concept, not a law of the universe . If you do an after-the-fact analysis of famous violinists or athletes, you will find those who have devoted that much time. But, could 9,000 hours do it for some, or maybe 7,000 for others? 10K hours, however, won't get it done if someone doesn't have the basic aptitude and capabilities for the task. If someone is slow, short, and can't learn to dribble a basketball, 10K hours is not going to put them into the NBA. The 10K hours is an analogy for "lots of work."

And what do you mean by mastery? If you're talking about a single-digit HDCP, it usually means a lot of work. But, I know some people - usually multisport athletes - who had a lesson or two and now break 80 regularly.

In golf as in other endeavors, there are masters, journeymen and apprentices.

And, as iacas said, many golfers play golf for group recreation and don't want to go the lesson route. These are casual golfers, not serious* ones.

But, for those who say they want to be serious, they need to do some self-study on what the golf swing is all about, probably find a pro they can work with, and then combine purposeful practice with playing. Successful lessons are all about finding a productive two-way interplay between pro and student.

* By serious I mean making a commitment to the sport, not being grouchy.

[The_Pharaoh]

Originally Posted by iacas

Three reasons.

1) 14% of golfers take lessons. So good luck to the 86%.

2) Of the 14% who take lessons, an obscenely large chunk of them are taking lessons from schmucks.

3) Of those who are left, some of them don't practice. They attend a lesson, think they've "got it," and don't put in any effort after the lesson. They play better for awhile and then go right back to their old habits.

Did you make the 14% up or is that true? Not crying BS, just wondering where you got that figure from. It seems high to me!

Regardless of the instructor, 99% of the 14% taking lessons most certainly do not get the most out of their lessons because, as you say, they don't put in the hours after the lesson. Even the greatest instructors in the world can't hit the balls for their students. Instructors can only ensure they give the student the right information, and encourage them to practice and practice the right way.

Usually students get frustrated far too quickly and give up making the changes. Changes which they never make in the first place. This is one of the reasons why a video camera is vital for a good instructor. The other day I was working with a student on getting him to hinge his wrists up quicker so he wouldn't start his backswing taking the clubhead inside. Obviously, this was a new move for him and it felt uncomfortable. He hit 3 balls making no change whatsoever to his swing. He turns to me and says, "your way isn't working". Fortunately, I'd recorded his 3 swings so he could see for himself that he'd made no change whatsoever to his swing. He looked at me completely aghast and said, "but it feels like I'm taking the club straight up!". We then worked on shorter shots, at 25% of his normal speed until he could feel the change (thanks to the Golf Evolution gang for this advice!). I then showed him he had now made the change.

The point I'm making is that students rarely give a change a chance because they struggle to even implement the change, and it's so easy to go back to what feels comfortable even if it isn't working. I encourage my students to film themselves practicing so they can be 100% certain they are making the change and not slipping back into old habits. This is important for when they are hitting balls and I'm not there to keep an eye on them.

One last comment I'd like to make is how to take changes out on to the golf course. Too many instructors tell their students that once they are out on the golf course, they simply need to aim at their targets and swing. I've never heard such utter BS in all my life. If you are working on changes and then go out on the golf course and simply swing without thinking about what you are doing, you will go straight back to your old habits. Jack Nicklaus said in Golf My Way, "on my good days I can have 6 swing thoughts in my head, but usually I'm only able to think about 2". I totally agree with him. Think of my student mentioned above. If on Tuesday we've been working on hinging the club up quicker for an hour, then he works on it for another hour before his round on Saturday without me there, there is a very good chance he doesn't have it down by the time he tees off. If he forgets all about hinging the club up quicker on the course, do you think he'll do it correctly or go right back to taking the club inside?

[ev780]

Originally Posted by WUTiger

Quote:

Gladwell's 10K hours is an interesting concept, not a law of the universe. If you do an after-the-fact analysis of famous violinists or athletes, you will find those who have devoted that much time. But, could 9,000 hours do it for some, or maybe 7,000 for others? 10K hours, however, won't get it done if someone doesn't have the basic aptitude and capabilities for the task. If someone is slow, short, and can't learn to dribble a basketball, 10K hours is not going to put them into the NBA. The 10K hours is an analogy for "lots of work."

And what do you mean by mastery? If you're talking about a single-digit HDCP, it usually means a lot of work. But, I know some people - usually multisport athletes - who had a lesson or two and now break 80 regularly.

In golf as in other endeavors, there are masters, journeymen and apprentices.

And, as iacas said, many golfers play golf for group recreation and don't want to go the lesson route. These are casual golfers, not serious* ones.

But, for those who say they want to be serious, they need to do some self-study on what the golf swing is all about, probably find a pro they can work with, and then combine purposeful practice with playing. Successful lessons are all about finding a productive two-way interplay between pro and student.

* By serious I mean making a commitment to the sport, not being grouchy.

Of course it's not a "law of the universe" it is the Bell Curve of the Universe.  Mastery is definetly in the eye of the beholder but I think few would agree that "breaking 80" is mastery.  Golf is one of those things I believe you never truly master.  But musicians, poker players, and a few others say the same thing.

There is also a tangent here that I think both of use were speaking to.  Is it truly 10,000 hours or is it one hour repeated 10,000 times?  A bad swing will never yield results just because it is repeated for 10,000 hours. There has to be quality time growth and change.

"In golf as in other endeavors, there are masters, journeymen and apprentices."

Love this statement.  Well put.

There will be those who will point out the exceptions, (like those few with freaky talent) but in most muscle memory activities (sports, music, dance, etc) there needs to be a teacher/coach that helps with mastery part of the equation.  If a golfer wants to be serious, and it's OK if they don't, then they have to log the quality time and most of us need a teacher.  And you and that teacher must commit to each other for it to work.  Shared vision and a connection.

[Rimrock]

I think lessons are a waste of time for the person who shoots in the 90's like myself.  I may play 2 times a week for a period of maybe 6 months.  That is not enough time to groove anything.  I play for the enjoyment of getting out and being with duffers like myself and maybe get a birdie.

For those who want to play to a single digit handicap you need to practice on the course not off a driving range.  Course conditions better emulate what the real world is.  If you can play by yourself you can also concentrate on how each shot feels  etc.

[carpediem4300]

Originally Posted by Rimrock

For those who want to play to a single digit handicap you need to practice on the course not off a driving range.  Course conditions better emulate what the real world is.  If you can play by yourself you can also concentrate on how each shot feels  etc.

errr no,...just no

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Rimrock

I think lessons are a waste of time for the person who shoots in the 90's like myself.  I may play 2 times a week for a period of maybe 6 months.  That is not enough time to groove anything.  I play for the enjoyment of getting out and being with duffers like myself and maybe get a birdie.

That's not really true. We see lots of golfers improve to play consistently in the 80s and even 70s playing once a week and hitting balls once a week. You can get pretty good doing a little work here and there if you're working on the right things and have a reasonable level of skill.

[The_Pharaoh]

Originally Posted by Rimrock

I think lessons are a waste of time for the person who shoots in the 90's like myself.  I may play 2 times a week for a period of maybe 6 months.  That is not enough time to groove anything.

2 times a week? Most golfers that take lessons are lucky to get out and play once a week. It is important to realise you don't have to hit 1000s of balls to groove anything, a lot of your work can be done at home with just a club.