Should Rule 4.4 (Maximum of 14 clubs) be altered?

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

But to suggest that leaving large gaps in the middle of our bag and forcing us to learn different shots is easier is ludicrous.

Bingo. Why make a guy who can't hit a stock 5I 160 yards consistently try to finesse his 5I 140 yards because his next longest club is a 9I that he can only hit 110?

Talk about frustrating.

Beginners and higher handicappers aren't aggravated because they have too many clubs, they get aggravated because they stink and can't hit any of their clubs solidly.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by Patrick57

Good point. But don't you think its strange, that out of 60+ million golfers no one seems to be trying this. Although many of them muse about how they played much better than they expected in the annual 3 or 5 club tournament, they go back to the more difficult 14 club game.

As I said in earlier posts, the tour pros allocate enough practice to become proficient with such a variety of clubs but very few amateurs do enough to earn this accolade.

Students of mine, who follow this advice, don't feel any need to have the full club allowance in their bag. My advice, try it for a season, or ten rounds, you probably won't go back.

I don't see playing with 14 clubs as being more difficult, not in any universal sense.  It may be true for a casual golfer who really doesn't know how far he hits a given club, and he doesn't hit any club consistently.  For him, It makes no difference if he only has a half set, and you may be right that it might actually improve his game.

But for the player who plays regularly and often, takes his game more or less seriously, 14 clubs isn't an issue.  Usually he selects the right club for the distance, although he may not always consider other factors correctly, like wind and elevation variances.  He may have clubs in his bag which he hasn't the skills to use properly, most commonly a high lofted (58° and up) wedge (at least that is the club I see misused or abused most often on the course).  Or he may too often try shots he hasn't learned how to execute (fade, draw, and flop come to mind).  But none of those is directly a result of carrying 14 clubs, they are too often a result of trying to emulate his favorite pro without first acquiring the skill set to back it up.

The game of golf is difficult, whether you carry 7 clubs and try to hit too many feel shots, or you carry 14 clubs and never learn those feel shots at all.  I think that a compromise is a better way to go.  Carry 14 clubs if you like for most rounds, but on a day when you are just out with a buddy for kicks, play a match with a half set.  Force yourself to think about how you want to execute each shot.  Do this a few times each year and you will find that it pays dividends.  But don't feel that you have to leave half your bag behind all the time just because it happens to work for Patrick.

[BugDude]

For the sake of interest, there should be one professional golf tournament per year in which each player can take only 1 club on the course.  Now, it could be a different club each day, but only 1 each round.  That would be sweet.

I played a 1 club tournament in NC many years ago and it was one of the most interesting and fun rounds of golf I've ever played.  I chose a 7 wood, and scored just as well...and better than a lot of days.  I've since played in a few 4 club tourneys and always enjoy them.  It makes you think in different terms and be more creative.

Perhaps there should be a tournament where one day it is only 1 club (whichever one you want), another where it is irons only, another in which you can use as many clubs as you want but you can't use any tees at all, and another day in which they can use their normal 14 clubs and tees but they have to play speed golf (time limit per hole or you get a double bogey and proceed to the next tee).  That would certainly be interesting and entertaining.

[Rednax1530]

To change the 14 club limit rule or not?

Well I am by no means an incredible golfer, and as I have read through some of the other posts here it really made me realize a couple really good points others have made.

1. If your just golfing for fun and enjoy playing with more than 14 clubs feel free.

- There is not official rule to limit the amount of clubs you can carry on a course for recreation..

- It does not hurt anyone if someone carries more than 14 clubs away from competition.

2. To carry less clubs may make you a better golfer.

- I dont have specific experience with this, but it makes sense that you would learn to work your clubs more, therefore making you a better golfer.

- Carrying more clubs for beginner golfers may make learning your distances more difficult.

So in my opinion they should leave the rule at 14, and away from tournament a player can practice with less or play with more as they seem fit. The better question in my opinion is what does the individual want to get out of the game?

I like the idea of playing with 5 - 7 clubs total as practice. I think it will help me to learn my specific clubs, work on accuracy, and adjusting my distances with different shots. I will be trying this more in the coming season!

Mitch

[GlobalGolf]

I think there is some merit in practicing with less than a full set of clubs. Legislating greater or fewer clubs may be a fun discussion topic, but it will likely never happen for several reasons.  Incorporating practice where you do not use or even carry all of your clubs is a great way to get the creative juices flowing and to learn shots that you never knew you had.  Do you think Phil Mickelson’s short game or Bubba Watson’s anywhere-game would have evolved over the decades without the imagination and the ingenuity to make shots with clubs that others would never even think of, much less try?  I guarantee you they did not start when they played their first round in a PGA Tour event.  They started much younger when they were just kids goofing off.  I learned shots this way as a kid trying to break 90 the first time and I still use some of them today.

A number of people have commented that you could not play bogey golf with a 9 iron and some comments have even lacked courtesy.  I worry that some are missing the point.  It is not that you can or cannot play bogey golf with a 9 iron, but rather that you should try once or twice.  Shoot, pick a different club.  A 7 iron would work too.  You’ll learn to avoid hitting behind greenside bunkers where lob shots are impractical with a 7 iron.  The same shot may be too difficult even with a 60* wedge.  It can teach to you play to the safe side, increasing your margin for error.  That’s sound course management even with a full set.

[zeg]

Originally Posted by GlobalGolf

A number of people have commented that you could not play bogey golf with a 9 iron and some comments have even lacked courtesy.  I worry that some are missing the point.  It is not that you can or cannot play bogey golf with a 9 iron, but rather that you should try once or twice.  Shoot, pick a different club.  A 7 iron would work too.  You’ll learn to avoid hitting behind greenside bunkers where lob shots are impractical with a 7 iron.  The same shot may be too difficult even with a 60* wedge.  It can teach to you play to the safe side, increasing your margin for error.  That’s sound course management even with a full set.

I haven't seen anyone object to playing with a limited number of clubs as a training exercise. The general consensus seems to be this is a very useful "drill." However, the OP was claiming something much stronger than that. He was specifically claiming we'd have better scores if we used 7 clubs for every round...

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by zeg

I haven't seen anyone object to playing with a limited number of clubs as a training exercise. The general consensus seems to be this is a very useful "drill." However, the OP was claiming something much stronger than that. He was specifically claiming we'd have better scores if we used 7 clubs for every round...

Summed it up perfectly.

[Patrick57]

Originally Posted by GlobalGolf

I think there is some merit in practicing with less than a full set of clubs. Legislating greater or fewer clubs may be a fun discussion topic, but it will likely never happen for several reasons.  Incorporating practice where you do not use or even carry all of your clubs is a great way to get the creative juices flowing and to learn shots that you never knew you had.  Do you think Phil Mickelson’s short game or Bubba Watson’s anywhere-game would have evolved over the decades without the imagination and the ingenuity to make shots with clubs that others would never even think of, much less try?  I guarantee you they did not start when they played their first round in a PGA Tour event.  They started much younger when they were just kids goofing off.  I learned shots this way as a kid trying to break 90 the first time and I still use some of them today.

A number of people have commented that you could not play bogey golf with a 9 iron and some comments have even lacked courtesy.  I worry that some are missing the point.  It is not that you can or cannot play bogey golf with a 9 iron, but rather that you should try once or twice.  Shoot, pick a different club.  A 7 iron would work too.  You’ll learn to avoid hitting behind greenside bunkers where lob shots are impractical with a 7 iron.  The same shot may be too difficult even with a 60* wedge.  It can teach to you play to the safe side, increasing your margin for error.  That’s sound course management even with a full set.

I believe 7 iron would make bogey golf a little easier and it is my plan to change my club selection for this task in the coming season. For the last 15 seasons I have played at least two 9 hole rounds a week with 9 iron when I go onto the course with my beginners. I didn't want to boast but I often come in 5 or 6 over par and I rarely three putt. I also take plenty of small bets with all handicappers and never lose - they must play allowing me handicap 18. They rarely want a rematch.

I understand and like your comment re. avoiding hitting behind green side bunkers with the 7. As 7 iron is probably the weakest club in my set of 7, you have convinced me that is what I am going to do in future. I am looking forward to this new bogey challenge.

[tristanhilton85]

Originally Posted by Patrick57

Thanks for the kind words. I was starting to lose faith in the human race. I felt that I didn't entice the lack of courtesy that was directed towards me but do admit to eventually responding to it, but rather tamely in my opinion.

I believe 7 iron would make bogey golf a little easier and it is my plan to change my club selection for this task in the coming season. For the last 15 seasons I have played at least two 9 hole rounds a week with 9 iron when I go onto the course with my beginners. I didn't want to boast but I often come in 5 or 6 over par and I rarely three putt. I also take plenty of small bets with all handicappers and never lose - they must play allowing me handicap 18. They rarely want a rematch.

I understand and like your comment re. avoiding hitting behind green side bunkers with the 7. As 7 iron is probably the weakest club in my set of 7, you have convinced me that is what I am going to do in future. I am looking forward to this new bogey challenge.

Whoa... hold on there... Now you say often times you come in 5 or 6 over par with just a 9 iron... that makes it sound easy.  But you said that it WASN'T easy and that you found it to be a challenge to pull it off.  You just continue to make no sense.

[Patrick57]

Originally Posted by iacas

Quote:

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

But to suggest that leaving large gaps in the middle of our bag and forcing us to learn different shots is easier is ludicrous.

Bingo. Why make a guy who can't hit a stock 5I 160 yards consistently try to finesse his 5I 140 yards because his next longest club is a 9I that he can only hit 110?

Talk about frustrating.

I think most golfers would choose a set with a standard 7 iron between these clubs. Without trying too sound too controversial, you seem like a glass half empty kind of guy to me.

Originally Posted by iacas

Beginners and higher handicappers aren't aggravated because they have too many clubs, they get aggravated because they stink and can't hit any of their clubs solidly.

In my opinion, that also applies to all golfers when things are going badly but I wouldn't be as hard as to say they stink.

[Patrick57]

Originally Posted by tristanhilton85

Whoa... hold on there... Now you say often times you come in 5 or 6 over par with just a 9 iron... that makes it sound easy.  But you said that it WASN'T easy and that you found it to be a challenge to pull it off.  You just continue to make no sense.

It's mostly on dry wind still days I can beat par but on windy wet days I can come in with 14 or 15 over for the same nine holes. For 18 holes, I have often broke 70 in the past that doesn't mean that I said it was easy to break 70. On wet windy days I have also played closer to 90 that doesn't make me an 18 handicap.

I can only try to make it as clear as possible for you to understand. You're not going to get my goat up again. It's not you who gets stuck in the Penalty Box.

[Patrick57]

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

Summed it up perfectly.

As I have quite a lot of experience in this, I am only making an educated and honest observation. I have heard positive feedback about this as a good training method, but I am surprised no one actually tries to play this way. As I do, then I do believe I am a bit of an authority on it.

Until some of my stronger critics actually say I tried it for 10 playing/scoring/counting rounds or the like, I remain, in my opinion, more of an authority on this subject. Because you think its a nonsense and have or will never try it doesn't really give you much credence.

[Clambake]

This whole thread reminds me so much of this:

With Patrick in the John Cleese role.....

[Patrick57]

Originally Posted by Rednax1530

To change the 14 club limit rule or not?

Well I am by no means an incredible golfer, and as I have read through some of the other posts here it really made me realize a couple really good points others have made.

1. If your just golfing for fun and enjoy playing with more than 14 clubs feel free.

- There is not official rule to limit the amount of clubs you can carry on a course for recreation..

- It does not hurt anyone if someone carries more than 14 clubs away from competition.

2. To carry less clubs may make you a better golfer.

- I dont have specific experience with this, but it makes sense that you would learn to work your clubs more, therefore making you a better golfer.

- Carrying more clubs for beginner golfers may make learning your distances more difficult.

So in my opinion they should leave the rule at 14, and away from tournament a player can practice with less or play with more as they seem fit. The better question in my opinion is what does the individual want to get out of the game?

I like the idea of playing with 5 - 7 clubs total as practice. I think it will help me to learn my specific clubs, work on accuracy, and adjusting my distances with different shots. I will be trying this more in the coming season!

Mitch

Thank you for your pleasant and sensible post. I hope you every success in your coming season.

What I want to get out of this game...

I want to play this game in a state of complete relaxation but still enjoy the challenge. I want my playing partners to enjoy with me a pleasant day on the course and not judge each other by what's been written on the scorecard.

[Patrick57]

Originally Posted by BugDude

For the sake of interest, there should be one professional golf tournament per year in which each player can take only 1 club on the course.  Now, it could be a different club each day, but only 1 each round.  That would be sweet.

I played a 1 club tournament in NC many years ago and it was one of the most interesting and fun rounds of golf I've ever played.  I chose a 7 wood, and scored just as well...and better than a lot of days.  I've since played in a few 4 club tourneys and always enjoy them.  It makes you think in different terms and be more creative.

Perhaps there should be a tournament where one day it is only 1 club (whichever one you want), another where it is irons only, another in which you can use as many clubs as you want but you can't use any tees at all, and another day in which they can use their normal 14 clubs and tees but they have to play speed golf (time limit per hole or you get a double bogey and proceed to the next tee).  That would certainly be interesting and entertaining.

Yes, one club, a Christmas tournament, make it a pro-celebrity am, two ball foursomes. I'd watch that. Or even better make it a 3 day Ryder cup sort of event. I would predict...

Europe 16       U.S.A. 12

LoL

P.S. The pros could really save on caddy fees in that tournament and I bet the sponsors and T.V. channels would get involved.

[Patrick57]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

I don't see playing with 14 clubs as being more difficult, not in any universal sense.  It may be true for a casual golfer who really doesn't know how far he hits a given club, and he doesn't hit any club consistently.  For him, It makes no difference if he only has a half set, and you may be right that it might actually improve his game.

But for the player who plays regularly and often, takes his game more or less seriously, 14 clubs isn't an issue.  Usually he selects the right club for the distance, although he may not always consider other factors correctly, like wind and elevation variances.  He may have clubs in his bag which he hasn't the skills to use properly, most commonly a high lofted (58° and up) wedge (at least that is the club I see misused or abused most often on the course).  Or he may too often try shots he hasn't learned how to execute (fade, draw, and flop come to mind).  But none of those is directly a result of carrying 14 clubs, they are too often a result of trying to emulate his favorite pro without first acquiring the skill set to back it up.

The game of golf is difficult, whether you carry 7 clubs and try to hit too many feel shots, or you carry 14 clubs and never learn those feel shots at all.  I think that a compromise is a better way to go.  Carry 14 clubs if you like for most rounds, but on a day when you are just out with a buddy for kicks, play a match with a half set.  Force yourself to think about how you want to execute each shot.  Do this a few times each year and you will find that it pays dividends.  But don't feel that you have to leave half your bag behind all the time just because it happens to work for Patrick.

Nice post with good points.

I have already covered most of what you have said and would just like to pick you up on this sentence,

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Carry 14 clubs if you like for most rounds, but on a day when you are just out with a buddy for kicks, play a match with a half set.

Why not go the full hog and play the odd tournament this way?

[scottyjoe145]

15 is the number for me.  I have to remove either the 3iron or the 62 degree wedge if I play in tournaments.  15 just fits:

Driver

3-wood

hybrid 2 iron

3-PW irons

52, 58, 62 degree wedges

putter

[Patrick57]

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

The better player isn't better mostly because he can control MORE CLUBS, he's better because he can control CLUBS MORE.

100% correct.

I do not have much time to practice and I use that time sparingly. E.g. my 9 iron rounds. In my opinion 40 odd shots with the same club was more productive practice than doing the same with a bagful. As for putting with a nine iron, you need a rock steady stroke to keep blading it in the middle of the ball

Earlier in my career I played and practised often and had a good command of most of the clubs in my bag - I however rarely felt the same confidence with an approach with a long iron in comparison to a shorter one. Lets face it they're easier and more forgiving.

In recent times, the last decade or so, I have not been able to practice so often and although my swing wasn't bad something was wrong. I decided to take the less consistent clubs out of my bag and replace them with more consistent or forgiving clubs. So I removed my 3 wood, 3 and 4 iron and replaced them with 3, 4 and 5 hybrids. This definitely improved my performance because most of my mistakes came from the clubs I dumped. But I was still making mistakes and after analysing it thoroughly noticed I was making most of these because of making poor club selections, especially when I selected one of the clubs I played less often.

To be cont.