Should Rule 4.4 (Maximum of 14 clubs) be altered?

[Patrick57]

Originally Posted by Gresh24

I'm sure any scratch golfer could still be very good with half the amount of clubs.  I don't see the point at all.

OK, you probably agree that golf is a difficult sport. You will probably agree that a low lofted club is harder to play than a more lofter one. In the last 20 years or so the manufacturers have been working hard on the forgiveness levels of the equipment and with modern technology they have succeeded, in my opinion. But I see many amateurs still carrying 3 & 4 irons in their bag when they could use a more forgiving hybrid or fairway wood. Its that macho thing, 160 yds, yeah that's my 6 iron. Although their good ones can get on or near the green, my eyes experience, more often than not, rather miserable results. I use my 26° hybrid for this shot and have no problem with the macho factor. This club replaces three irons - 4, 5 & 6 - and as I use it more often, I am very familiar with it.

If amateurs had less clubs in the bag they would, like me, become more familiar with fewer clubs, which must be better than unfamiliar with double the amount. Lets face it we play about 60% of all of our shots from the tee or on the green, and over 50% of these are with putter and driver. I think another 5 clubs for the rest is more than enough.

[Gresh24]

Patrick

I would be willing to bet almost anything that you are on an island by yourself here (as with basically all of your views related to golf).  If there are any other scratch golfers not carrying a 4, 5, or 6 iron, or only carrying 7 clubs, please speak up!

I'm glad it works for you.  It may work for others.  But, I haven't seen a logical argument as to why to attempt it.  You can do it, and as I mentioned most scratch golfers could.  Your argument for it was that people pick the wrong club.  We disagree that more clubs is the cause of that.  Some people are smart enough to handle the distances of 13 clubs.  And as has pointed out, all clubs don't get used every round.  Mid to higher cappers have "go to " clubs that they certainly use more often that cover more yardage gaps.

IMO, it can work for either really good or really bad golfers.  Good golfers can make adjustments and for the bad ball strikers, it doesn't really matter.  It isn't, however, the best thing for everyone in between.

[Gresh24]

Originally Posted by Patrick57

OK, you probably agree that golf is a difficult sport. You will probably agree that a low lofted club is harder to play than a more lofter one. In the last 20 years or so the manufacturers have been working hard on the forgiveness levels of the equipment and with modern technology they have succeeded, in my opinion. But I see many amateurs still carrying 3 & 4 irons in their bag when they could use a more forgiving hybrid or fairway wood. Its that macho thing, 160 yds, yeah that's my 6 iron. Although their good ones can get on or near the green, my eyes experience, more often than not, rather miserable results. I use my 26° hybrid for this shot and have no problem with the macho factor. This club replaces three irons - 4, 5 & 6 - and as I use it more often, I am very familiar with it.

If amateurs had less clubs in the bag they would, like me, become more familiar with fewer clubs, which must be better than unfamiliar with double the amount. Lets face it we play about 60% of all of our shots from the tee or on the green, and over 50% of these are with putter and driver. I think another 5 clubs for the rest is more than enough.

I get the argument of replacing irons with hybrids but that is a seperate argument.  My 4 - 6 iron gap is nearly 50 yards.  No way I'd attempt to do that with one hybrid.  I hit my irons pretty well.

I don't agree that if I had a 7 iron and not an 8, that hitting the 7 iron 20 times in a round vs. hitting each 10 times, would make me better, or make me more familiar with a club.  There isn't that much difference in the clubs that I'd need to be familiar with one and couldn't be with the other.

Maybe I should ask what 7 clubs you carry to better understand.  Sorry if you already posted that.

[Patrick57]

Originally Posted by Gresh24

Patrick

I would be willing to bet almost anything that you are on an island by yourself here (as with basically all of your views related to golf).  If there are any other scratch golfers not carrying a 4, 5, or 6 iron, or only carrying 7 clubs, please speak up!

I'm glad it works for you.  It may work for others.  But, I haven't seen a logical argument as to why to attempt it.  You can do it, and as I mentioned most scratch golfers could.  Your argument for it was that people pick the wrong club.  We disagree that more clubs is the cause of that.  Some people are smart enough to handle the distances of 13 clubs.  And as has pointed out, all clubs don't get used every round.  Mid to higher cappers have "go to " clubs that they certainly use more often that cover more yardage gaps.

IMO, it can work for either really good or really bad golfers.  Good golfers can make adjustments and for the bad ball strikers, it doesn't really matter.  It isn't, however, the best thing for everyone in between.

Good point. But don't you think its strange, that out of 60+ million golfers no one seems to be trying this. Although many of them muse about how they played much better than they expected in the annual 3 or 5 club tournament, they go back to the more difficult 14 club game.

As I said in earlier posts, the tour pros allocate enough practice to become proficient with such a variety of clubs but very few amateurs do enough to earn this accolade.

Students of mine, who follow this advice, don't feel any need to have the full club allowance in their bag. My advice, try it for a season, or ten rounds, you probably won't go back.

[zeg]

Originally Posted by Patrick57

Good point. But don't you think its strange, that out of 60+ million golfers no one seems to be trying this. Although many of them muse about how they played much better than they expected in the annual 3 or 5 club tournament, they go back to the more difficult 14 club game.

I doubt that every one of the 60+ million golfers out there carries 14 clubs every round just because they can, so your premise in this paragraph is bunk.

However, I wouldn't be at all surprised if no one was carrying 7 clubs because they felt it improved their scores because, quite simply, the "14 club game" is not more difficult.

[Gresh24]

Originally Posted by Patrick57

Good point. But don't you think its strange, that out of 60+ million golfers no one seems to be trying this. Although many of them muse about how they played much better than they expected in the annual 3 or 5 club tournament, they go back to the more difficult 14 club game.

No, I'm not surprised at all no one seems to be trying this - that should be the question you're asking yourself.  I'm sure some do "better than expected" in a 3 or 5 club tournament, but likely not literally better than they can usually.  Thus, why no one sticks with it.

[tristanhilton85]

Originally Posted by Patrick57

I would not take it on me to force any changes to any of the 34 rules. I am of the opinion that most amateurs would benefit from having less clubs in their bag and I used the rules angle to suggest how many clubs the different skill levels should try to master before moving on. I devote enough time to my practice where I know 7 clubs inside out. E.g. I will hit an easy 7i more accurately that a full 8i. When it comes to the less lofted irons, I devote even less time to practice and go for a more forgiving hybrid with 26°. I play easy golf, not macho golf.

Why would having a lighter bag make people give up the game. I always carry my bag and with only 7 clubs, its more of a pleasure.

Ok... kind of beating around the bush here... again.  So once again, I'll ask:

If the USGA (or R&A;) were to propose this rule change that you outlined in your first post would you be in favor of it or against it?  Obviously it wouldn't be you forcing a change on any of the rules, but if the governing bodies of golf brought it up and asked your opinion on it, yes or no, would you be for it?

[Patrick57]

Originally Posted by zeg

I doubt that every one of the 60+ million golfers out there carries 14 clubs every round just because they can, so your premise in this paragraph is bunk.

However, I wouldn't be at all surprised if no one was carrying 7 clubs because they felt it improved their scores because, quite simply, the "14 club game" is not more difficult.

You are obviously experienced in this. How many rounds have you played with a 7 club set?

[Patrick57]

Originally Posted by tristanhilton85

Ok... kind of beating around the bush here... again.  So once again, I'll ask:

If the USGA (or R&A;) were to propose this rule change that you outlined in your first post would you be in favor of it or against it?  Obviously it wouldn't be you forcing a change on any of the rules, but if the governing bodies of golf brought it up and asked your opinion on it, yes or no, would you be for it?

100%. Without a doubt. It brings much more enjoyment to my game and I can see the logic in it. But I would not like to force the issue.

[Patrick57]

Originally Posted by Gresh24

I get the argument of replacing irons with hybrids but that is a seperate argument.  My 4 - 6 iron gap is nearly 50 yards.  No way I'd attempt to do that with one hybrid.  I hit my irons pretty well.

I don't agree that if I had a 7 iron and not an 8, that hitting the 7 iron 20 times in a round vs. hitting each 10 times, would make me better, or make me more familiar with a club.  There isn't that much difference in the clubs that I'd need to be familiar with one and couldn't be with the other.

Maybe I should ask what 7 clubs you carry to better understand.  Sorry if you already posted that.

The seven clubs would be your choice, I find the hybrid very versatile and you have a different preference. During a normal 18 hole round, I play about 6 shots with my 7 iron on average. When I played with 14 clubs, I always played over 90% of my shots with less than half of my set.

Originally Posted by Patrick57

I personally play with 7 clubs in my bag and I can shoot around par with them. When i go out with 14 clubs I normally play worse because I often choose the wrong club.

I have a driver for my tee shots; 5 wood for 170 plus tee shots and longer fairway shots; 5 hybrid 26° for all shots 150-170; 7 iron for 130-150; 9 iron for all shots from off the green to 130; 56° wedge for sand and when I have to go high and finally my putter.

With this selection I rarely choose the wrong club.

I'm surprised that most of the comments about club selection are positive. When anyone describes a round of golf to me I almost always hear,

"Yeah, I took the wrong club on that hole I should have played my ..."

[Golfingdad]

How is it easier for us mediocre amateurs to learn to finesse one club a variety of distances, than it is to use the same swing with different clubs for different distances?  Heck, even the pros often times lay back to, for example, a full sand wedge on a 3 shot par 5 rather than stick themselves with an awkward 50-60 yard pitch.  Why do they do that?

Certainly, PRACTICING hitting different distances - like, a 7 iron 160 all the way down to 100 - is a good way to learn touch, but no way would I agree that it is easier than using different clubs.

The original question is interesting from some standpoints, but I don't think making the game easier is one of them.  This would fit into the discussion of ways to make the game more challenging for the best players (along with groove limits, ball limits, etc)  The PBA has an event every year where the bowlers are required to use plastic balls.  It makes the game a little more challenging for them, and its interesting to see how well they handle the changes.  I would love to see a silly season event (or maybe an 18 hole exhibition) where the pros were limited to a fraction of their clubs ... maybe 4 or 5.  Does anybody think they would do BETTER than if they had their whole compliment of clubs?

The only reason I would be happy with a club limit is that it would be less strain on my brittle back while walking.  I could support that!

[tristanhilton85]

Originally Posted by Patrick57

100%. Without a doubt. It brings much more enjoyment to my game and I can see the logic in it. But I would not like to force the issue.

You really don't think that this rule change would discourage new golfers?  I mean, learning the full swing is hard enough, but now you are asking them to learn to hit half shots, 3/4 shots, easy shots, etc...  Now they have to learn how to take a little off of the 5 iron because the next iron down they have is a 7 and that isn't enough... or they have to get out of the sand with a PW because  one of their 7 clubs isn't a SW...

Don't get me wrong, what I described above is a great exercise for golfers who have a pretty good idea of the game... this is one way to learn all those types of shots, but to force a beginner to do this is unfair, I think.

And that isn't to say that I think a beginner needs all 14 clubs, but I think that 7 is too limited.  There is something to be said for taking a driver out of a beginners bag (although I wouldn't) or giving them just a PW and SW as they don't need that many options.  If I was putting together a bag for a beginner it'd go something like this.

Driver

FW (probably a 4 wood, something in the 16-17 degree range)

2 Hybrids (4 & 5)

6-PW

GW

SW

Putter

Which would be 12 clubs.  I could let go of one of the hybrids if forced to bring it down to 11 and maybe even the GW, although I'm not sure that is a great idea because to go from a 44° PW to a 56° SW is too much in my opinion and I'm trying to make it so that they can pretty much get around the course with mostly full shots.  Even so though, that would be 10 clubs which is still one more than scratch players get in your system.

And I know that some would argue to take the driver out, but in todays age with the size and the forgiveness of drivers, they are often easier to hit than a fairway wood.  On top of that the further down the course a beginner can get the ball the better so I'd leave it in.

Originally Posted by Patrick57

I'm surprised that most of the comments about club selection are positive. When anyone describes a round of golf to me I almost always hear,

"Yeah, I took the wrong club on that hole I should have played my ..."

That does happen a bit but I don't know if this would change it really... I mean I thing you would just hear:

"Yeah, I thought it was a 3/4 7 iron but it was really a 1/2"

[zeg]

Originally Posted by Patrick57

You are obviously experienced in this. How many rounds have you played with a 7 club set?

I've played plenty of rounds where I use 7 or fewer clubs of the 13 or 14 I'm carrying. I don't put a chalk mark on each club after I hit it and play a game to make sure I use them all every time I go out.

You're making an outrageous claim that flies in the face of logic. See my earlier post with 3 specific reasons why I don't buy that 14 clubs increase the difficulty of the game. If you can't refute any of these or provide something beyond anecdotes, then you're not going to be very convincing.

Originally Posted by Patrick57

I'm surprised that most of the comments about club selection are positive. When anyone describes a round of golf to me I almost always hear,

"Yeah, I took the wrong club on that hole I should have played my ..."

You also hear guys at the blackjack table wishing they'd hit on that 15 against a dealer 16 when the dealer draws to 21. These games lose a lot of their challenge when you play them in hindsight. However, we're stuck with the arrow of time. In gambling that means playing the odds, and in golf it means trusting your distances. I'm not a very good golfer, but I'm a lot better at averaging 130 yards with my 8 iron than I am easing 10 yards off my 7 iron or pressing 10 yards onto my 9 iron. In fact, it's because I'm not a very good golfer that this is true. Taking that club out of my bag is going to make it harder for me to hit that distance when I need it.

Also, I don't know anyone who says that about a majority or even a significant fraction of their shots. Most of the time, the club is about right but hit poorly or the conditions are simply misjudged. Having fewer club choices won't help in these cases.

Do you really think it's better to hear, "I took the wrong club on that hole, I should have played my ... but it was in the garage at home ?"

[Patrick57]

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

How is it easier for us mediocre amateurs to learn to finesse one club a variety of distances, than it is to use the same swing with different clubs for different distances?  Heck, even the pros often times lay back to, for example, a full sand wedge on a 3 shot par 5 rather than stick themselves with an awkward 50-60 yard pitch.  Why do they do that?

They are able to do that because of the hours of precise yardage practice they put in with each club. I rarely see amateurs with the same control. You may choose to have two or more wedges in you bag if that's your preference but with a seven club bag that would be difficult. I rarely find myself 50 yds from the green, but if I do, I have no problem dealing with it.

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

Certainly, PRACTICING hitting different distances - like, a 7 iron 160 all the way down to 100 - is a good way to learn touch, but no way would I agree that it is easier than using different clubs.

I have my 7 iron for 130 to 150 and 9 iron for shorter. I would struggle a little without my 9 iron for the shorter distances. That's just one club for 60 yds/metres, I don't advocate that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

The original question is interesting from some standpoints, but I don't think making the game easier is one of them.  This would fit into the discussion of ways to make the game more challenging for the best players (along with groove limits, ball limits, etc)  The PBA has an event every year where the bowlers are required to use plastic balls.  It makes the game a little more challenging for them, and its interesting to see how well they handle the changes.  I would love to see a silly season event (or maybe an 18 hole exhibition) where the pros were limited to a fraction of their clubs ... maybe 4 or 5.  Does anybody think they would do BETTER than if they had their whole compliment of clubs?

The only reason I would be happy with a club limit is that it would be less strain on my brittle back while walking.  I could support that!

The top pros would play very well with a set of two clubs but they have such a command of their equipment, distance control, shaping shots etc. That's why I deliberately said leave the rule alone for the tour pros. They've put in the hours of practice and I can therefore control every club and more.

Finally, less strain on your back, better results, less macho orientated decisions and more fun. Try it then!

P.S. I think most tour pros, on a regular golf course, without using the tiger tees, could play very close to scratch with a 9 iron. I do realise as soon as there's a hole with a 200 yd carry they would have problems, but I know many courses, especially in Scotland where this is not the case.

[Patrick57]

Originally Posted by zeg

I think we are going to have to call it quits. Have you headed out on a regular basis onto the course with only 7 clubs in your bag. Probably not. I am not condemning you, its your choice and the rules state you can carry up to 14. I am making my argument for why we, as amateurs/non-tour pros, should make life easier and half this number. I am also relatively experienced to talk about this because I have been doing it for three seasons and don't see the need to go back to 14. Don't whack it until you have tried it.

As for distance control, most amateurs struggle with this because they rarely hit a club the way they expect. I see this every day. They can hit a 9 iron all day on the driving range with a bucket of balls, consistently to 120-140 yds. But on the 5 or 6 occasions that they need this club during a 3-4 hour round, its a different story, where at best, on average, they will get 50% success on distance control. Or have I been playing with bad single figure players?

[Patrick57]

Originally Posted by tristanhilton85

You really don't think that this rule change would discourage new golfers?  I mean, learning the full swing is hard enough, but now you are asking them to learn to hit half shots, 3/4 shots, easy shots, etc...  Now they have to learn how to take a little off of the 5 iron because the next iron down they have is a 7 and that isn't enough... or they have to get out of the sand with a PW because  one of their 7 clubs isn't a SW...

Don't get me wrong, what I described above is a great exercise for golfers who have a pretty good idea of the game... this is one way to learn all those types of shots, but to force a beginner to do this is unfair, I think.

And that isn't to say that I think a beginner needs all 14 clubs, but I think that 7 is too limited.  There is something to be said for taking a driver out of a beginners bag (although I wouldn't) or giving them just a PW and SW as they don't need that many options.  If I was putting together a bag for a beginner it'd go something like this.

Driver

FW (probably a 4 wood, something in the 16-17 degree range)

2 Hybrids (4 & 5)

6-PW

GW

SW

Putter

Which would be 12 clubs.  I could let go of one of the hybrids if forced to bring it down to 11 and maybe even the GW, although I'm not sure that is a great idea because to go from a 44° PW to a 56° SW is too much in my opinion and I'm trying to make it so that they can pretty much get around the course with mostly full shots.  Even so though, that would be 10 clubs which is still one more than scratch players get in your system.

And I know that some would argue to take the driver out, but in todays age with the size and the forgiveness of drivers, they are often easier to hit than a fairway wood.  On top of that the further down the course a beginner can get the ball the better so I'd leave it in.

That does happen a bit but I don't know if this would change it really... I mean I thing you would just hear:

"Yeah, I thought it was a 3/4 7 iron but it was really a 1/2"

On the contrary, it makes the game easier and easier means better results which means more fun, so why give up?

The better the player, the more the chance is that he can control more clubs. On the same breath, and this is my experience, a less talented golfer does a better job with fewer clubs to control.

I would bet you have not tried this, if you did you would experience what I am talking about. (With your handicap, up to 7 clubs, and for at least 10 rounds remember)

[zeg]

Originally Posted by Patrick57

I think we are going to have to call it quits. Have you headed out on a regular basis onto the course with only 7 clubs in your bag. Probably not. I am not condemning you, its your choice and the rules state you can carry up to 14. I am making my argument for why we, as amateurs/non-tour pros, should make life easier and half this number. I am also relatively experienced to talk about this because I have been doing it for three seasons and don't see the need to go back to 14. Don't whack it until you have tried it.

Yes, I'd say we're done. I explained my reasoning and haven't seen anything but bald assertions in response or elsewhere in the thread. Certainly nothing I'd consider an argument in the logical sense.

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by Patrick57

The better the player, the more the chance is that he can control more clubs. On the same breath, and this is my experience, a less talented golfer does a better job with fewer clubs to control.

This is where I think you are mistaken.  The better player isn't better mostly because he can control MORE CLUBS, he's better because he can control CLUBS MORE.

And with amateurs its not the amount of clubs that we have trouble controlling, its specific clubs.  Many AMs (like myself) have a lot of trouble with 60* wedges and would probably be better off not attempting high flop shots.  Others have no business carrying a driver.  Still others should avoid long irons.  Etc, etc.

But to suggest that leaving large gaps in the middle of our bag and forcing us to learn different shots is easier is ludicrous.