Greens with Bunkers in the Middle are Ridiculous

[parsnates]

Originally Posted by Lefty-Golfer

i would pull out a wedge and chip over the bunker in a heartbeat before i wasted a stoke on a putt...and i wouldn't care if the greenskeeper or super was there watching. This is coming from a guy who repairs ball marks, fills divots and typically if i have time waiting on others will fill in a few others that people left. i do respect and take of my course but it you are dumb enough to put a bunker in the middle of a green i am dumb enough to chip over...but i would certainly replace the divot!!!!

Well, being a high 'capper, I was just as well off putting as opposed to trying a cut lob off the thinnest of lies.  I would probably tear a chunk out of the green and dump it in the bunker anyway or thin it over the green.  (Also, if it's your club, you want to play it in a way that doesn't degrade the condition of your course.)  What's interesting to me is the anger that's seems to be behind a lot of the posts. It's as if taking the divot out of the green is as much about punishing the architect/owner as it is about scoring.  In my case, the hole was certainly playable and a ball on the wrong side of the bunker just pointed out that I was unable to control my shot enough to miss in the right spot.  Annoying, but undeniable. My chances for bogey from the green on the wrong side of the bunker was pretty high, probably higher that when I missed the green and had to chip on. Quirky as it was, it really didn't impose an excessive penalty for what was, in reality, a missed shot.

[CallawayGolf25]

I think it's a cool hazard... Unique. I saw a guy have to chip over one at last weeks PGA tournament while on the opposite side of the green. Hit a decent shot too.

I just figure, don't hit it in, or on the other side of the bunker, and you won't have to worry about it, lol.

[allin]

Every shot should have an appropriate risk-reward? Sure - but the penalty for failing in this case to hit the ball to the proper section of the green is that you can't hole your next shot, and you'll have a medium-length putt for par. The bunker at Riviera isn't exactly taking up a ton of space: [URL=http://cdn.thesandtrap.com/c/c6/c6dabfdf_Riviera_Sixth.jpeg][IMG]http://cdn.thesandtrap.com/c/c6/414x275px-LL-c6dabfdf_Riviera_Sixth.jpeg[/IMG][/URL] You still basically have two greens (either front/back or left/right, depending on how you want to look at it). What if you looked at it this way given the flag position above: I missed the green well to the right but was still putting. Woo! Only if you "miss the green" (the "left" one) long AND right are you "punished" - and why shouldn't you be?

The issue is appropriate, yes it's an appropriate risk for a low handicap or pro, but for average golfers this is excessive. If the course is only for play by low handicap or pros fine. These responses demonstrates why average golfers are fleeing the game. For average golfers an iron shot hitting the green and staying on is a good shot. They normally still face longer putts than better golfers, this is excessive.

[parsnates]

Originally Posted by allin

The issue is appropriate, yes it's an appropriate risk for a low handicap or pro, but for average golfers this is excessive. If the course is only for play by low handicap or pros fine. These responses demonstrates why average golfers are fleeing the game. For average golfers an iron shot hitting the green and staying on is a good shot. They normally still face longer putts than better golfers, this is excessive.

I would have to disagree that the penalty is excessive based on my experience as a high handicapper who played a hole like that every week.  (It's not often that I get to claim expertise based on my 20ish index.)  Looking at the Riviera photo, I would say I could get down in three putts if the bunker were between me and the pin.  A bogey on a par three? - sign me up.

[MSchott]

Originally Posted by allin

The issue is appropriate, yes it's an appropriate risk for a low handicap or pro, but for average golfers this is excessive. If the course is only for play by low handicap or pros fine. These responses demonstrates why average golfers are fleeing the game. For average golfers an iron shot hitting the green and staying on is a good shot. They normally still face longer putts than better golfers, this is excessive.

This hole is only 144 yards from the white tees. That's exactly why the are different tees for different handicap players. As a current 20 handicap it's more likely I'll be in the front bunker than the center bunker. Either way I'd probably end up with bogey. On my home course there is a similar length hole with a bunker that rarely comes into play. My average score on that hole is bogey. I don't see anything unfair about these holes.

[Lefty-Golfer]

Originally Posted by parsnates

I would have to disagree that the penalty is excessive based on my experience as a high handicapper who played a hole like that every week.  (It's not often that I get to claim expertise based on my 20ish index.)  Looking at the Riviera photo, I would say I could get down in three putts if the bunker were between me and the pin.  A bogey on a par three? - sign me up.

i don't doubt your are correct on the 3 putts. the point is if you are on the green you should have the chance to get down in 2...if the best chance to get down in 2 is to chip and 1 putt so be it.

[preisman]

As a crap golfer it adds a lot of unwanted pressure. I play just short of the green if it is the front, or go long if in the back, avoiding it at all costs.. I have played that hole twice at TPC San Antonio. First time I was going for it and went straight in the bunker. The second I left short and to the right of the green. Chipped on and two putted. I felt that to be the best way to play that hole for me. I just avoided the bulls eye on the green. It is a challenge, but fun. We were looking forward to the hole all day and were happy to play it. I do not think they shold be a staple of golf, but it is fun here and there.

[MSchott]

Originally Posted by Lefty-Golfer

i don't doubt your are correct on the 3 putts. the point is if you are on the green you should have the chance to get down in 2...if the best chance to get down in 2 is to chip and 1 putt so be it.

I believe the green at Riviera is banked at the back so you can at least try to get close to the hole if you are on the other side of the bunker. Overall that green is decently sized and the bunker is small. You'd have to put yourself in pretty bad position to need to go around the bunker. Looking at the picture in Erik's post, I'd guess that based on that pin position, only 25% of the green is not directly accessible to the pin.

[golfcourseasart]

Originally Posted by MSchott

I believe the green at Riviera is banked at the back so you can at least try to get close to the hole if you are on the other side of the bunker. Overall that green is decently sized and the bunker is small. You'd have to put yourself in pretty bad position to need to go around the bunker. Looking at the picture in Erik's post, I'd guess that based on that pin position, only 25% of the green is not directly accessible to the pin.

I think the first sentence of that post is key. I don't mind a bunker in a green, provided it's sparingly done but I think the onus is on the architect who opts for it to then give someone stymied by the bunker a route for putting around it.

That way, you're still punished by having a difficult shot ahead of you but instead of stressing over the thought of chunking the green with your lob wedge, you get a stab at what is one of the most thrilling shots in the game when it comes off - the put that starts out going 45 degrees away from the hole before slowly curling round into gimmie range.

[Lefty-Golfer]

Originally Posted by MSchott

I believe the green at Riviera is banked at the back so you can at least try to get close to the hole if you are on the other side of the bunker. Overall that green is decently sized and the bunker is small. You'd have to put yourself in pretty bad position to need to go around the bunker. Looking at the picture in Erik's post, I'd guess that based on that pin position, only 25% of the green is not directly accessible to the pin.

then you have a chance (remote but there) for 2 putts and to me that is fair.

Originally Posted by golfcourseasart

I think the first sentence of that post is key. I don't mind a bunker in a green, provided it's sparingly done but I think the onus is on the architect who opts for it to then give someone stymied by the bunker a route for putting around it.

That way, you're still punished by having a difficult shot ahead of you but instead of stressing over the thought of chunking the green with your lob wedge, you get a stab at what is one of the most thrilling shots in the game when it comes off - the put that starts out going 45 degrees away from the hole before slowly curling round into gimmie range.

bolded

[trickymicky69]

Originally Posted by Lefty-Golfer

i don't doubt your are correct on the 3 putts. the point is if you are on the green you should have the chance to get down in 2...if the best chance to get down in 2 is to chip and 1 putt so be it.

well said

[ev780]

Originally Posted by turtleback

I don't think there is any basis in the Rules that would allow such a local rule, but I could be wrong.  But I do know that local committees cannot just make up any local rules they want to.

Sure they can!  They may not be able to set the conditions of a sanctioned competition.  But, if you want to play their course they can set any rule they want.  And I would not blame them for setting a rule that you could not chip or pitch from the green in this situation.  Greens are an expensive asset and the "committee" (whoever the hell they are?) is right in protecting them.

Kind of gimicky I agree.  I hate trees in the middle of fairways worse!!  So i hit a good drive in the firway and now I have a tree in the way.  Makes me nuts.  Penalize me for a bad shot but not for a good one.

[Shorty]

Originally Posted by ev780

Kind of gimicky I agree.  I hate trees in the middle of fairways worse!!  So i hit a good drive in the firway and now I have a tree in the way.  Makes me nuts.  Penalize me for a bad shot but not for a good one.

So - a shot that puts you behind a tree is a good shot?

A good shot is one that hits the spot you aimed at, or the correct part of the fairway. The one that ends up behind a tree is a shit shot. How can it be anything else?

You would have to say that you wanted it to end up behind a tree if it was a good shot.

[sabram]

Here's another green with a bunker in the middle. #17 at Bayside in Ogallala Nebraska. It is a fun hole. I played two rounds a day  on successive days from different tees each round with the pin in different places. It wa cool trying to figure out how to putt and run the ball down certain slopes for the best chance at a two putt. In some places a 1 putt was impossible but that is almost true on "normal" greens. The main point is you need to be on the right are of the green with your tee shot if you want a realistic chance at birdie, but as other have said, if you're in the bunker what's the difference if it's green center or green side? You basically hit a hsot that was off by a few yards.

[trickymicky69]

Originally Posted by sabram

Here's another green with a bunker in the middle. #17 at Bayside in Ogallala Nebraska. It is a fun hole. I played two rounds a day  on successive days from different tees each round with the pin in different places. It wa cool trying to figure out how to putt and run the ball down certain slopes for the best chance at a two putt. In some places a 1 putt was impossible but that is almost true on "normal" greens. The main point is you need to be on the right are of the green with your tee shot if you want a realistic chance at birdie, but as other have said, if you're in the bunker what's the difference if it's green center or green side? You basically hit a hsot that was off by a few yards.

Why not just make the green smaller?

I think that from ANYWHERE on the green it should be POSSIBLE that you should be able to make a one putt

Even if that means its very unlikely

With greens like that we would need a BUR stat (bunker in regulation)

[jamo]

I think that from ANYWHERE on the green it should be POSSIBLE that you should be able to make a one putt

That's not true even on some greens without bunkers. I've seen plenty of greens where a section of rough juts out from one edge, and you would have to putt through long rough to get to some holes from some places on the green. Making that is about as possible as making one through a bunker.

[trickymicky69]

Originally Posted by jamo

That's not true even on some greens without bunkers. I've seen plenty of greens where a section of rough juts out from one edge, and you would have to putt through long rough to get to some holes from some places on the green. Making that is about as possible as making one through a bunker.

is that rough smack bang in the centre of the green with a penalty for grounding your club in it?

[jamo]

is that rough smack bang in the centre of the green with a penalty for grounding your club in it?

Sometimes it juts out enough that it is in the middle, yes. And you also can't putt around it from one side, which isn't true of a bunker in the middle of a green, which you can putt around to either side. What does a grounding penalty have to do with anything? Would you putt from deep rough? We were talking about being stymied by a bunker or from the rough, not putting from it.