Moving Man Made Objects

[jd4vt1998]

Yesterday on the 15th hole at my course, after hitting my drive into the fairway, I shanked my hybrid right into the rough.  Unfortunately, there was a big stake near my ball and I couldn't hit.  My Dad had to walk by it to get to the second part of the hole.  So, without me even asking, he moved the stake.  When I took my shot, I hadn't realized he had moved it, and bounced my ball right off it... into the water.  I finished the hole with an 8.  Anyways, was that in any way illegal?

[Dormie1360]

If your Dad had moved the stake with your knowledge I'd want some more information on what kind of stake it was.  As this is not the case, nothing illegal.

You father was an outside agency (I'm assuming you were not playing against him in a match or he was your partner, if so the ruling could be different ) The outside agency moved something that you had no knowledge about.  The fact that you hit the stake in it's new position is "rub of the green" and you play the ball as it lies after striking the stake.

Hope this helps.

[jd4vt1998]

well that sucks.  Technically, you could say I was playing a match against him.  What would the ruling be in that case?

[Rulesman]

It makes no difference.

[iacas]

BTW, what kind of stake was it?

[Dormie1360]

If the intent in moving the object was, in part, to affect the play of your next stroke then penalty options would depend on who he was.  (I.E. Your Dad, after moving the stake to get it out of the way for him, put it in a place where he thought it would help you).  If this was not the case, I agree with Rulesman.

Edit:  Sounds like an OB stake, or fairway exit post.

[jd4vt1998]

Quote:

BTW, what kind of stake was it?

It was a plastic one used to mark off where the carts can and can't go.

[Dormie1360]

Yeah, sounds like a movable obstruction.  Rulesman is right, I'm making way too much out of this.  It's just a rub of the green.........bad luck in your case.   I can't think of a scenario where there would be any penalties involved.  You obviously saw it before you played your stroke and therefore had the option to move it if you thought it might be in the way.

[trickymicky69]

Originally Posted by iacas

BTW, what kind of stake was it?

My pal moved an OOB stake the other day when we were playing and I told him that it wasn't allowed.

Was that the correct ruling?

Sorry for the partial thread hijack btw but its kinda relevant

[Zeph]

My pal moved an OOB stake the other day when we were playing and I told him that it wasn't allowed. Was that the correct ruling? Sorry for the partial thread hijack btw but its kinda relevant

[QUOTE]Objects defining out of bounds such as walls, fences, stakes and railings are not obstructions and are deemed to be fixed. Stakes identifying out of bounds are not obstructions and are deemed to be fixed. Note 2: A Committee may make a Local Rule declaring stakes identifying but not defining out of bounds to be obstructions.[/QUOTE] You are not allowed to move an OOB stake. Not sure what they mean with note 2. What is the difference of a stake identifying and defining out of bounds? I suppose the latter are stakes that really create the OOB line, but which stakes identify it?

[trickymicky69]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeph

Quote:

Objects defining out of bounds such as walls, fences, stakes and railings are not obstructions and are deemed to be fixed. Stakes identifying out of bounds are not obstructions and are deemed to be fixed.
Note 2: A Committee may make a Local Rule declaring stakes identifying but not defining out of bounds to be obstructions.

You are not allowed to move an OOB stake.
Not sure what they mean with note 2. What is the difference of a stake identifying and defining out of bounds? I suppose the latter are stakes that really create the OOB line, but which stakes identify it?

I always assumed that if you move an OOB post marking the edge of the course, you are momentarily moving the perimeter of the course?

My funny logic i guess

[Rulesman]

OOB is often defined by white lies or fences. In both cases stakes may be in the ground in the defining line. In which case they are also defining the OOB and are not Obstructions and must not be moved.

In other cases there are only white stakes and the straight line joining pairs of stakes and the stakes defines the OOB.

Sometimes an OOB fence, wall or line are not visible from where a ball is being struck and white stakes (often topped with black) are used to indicate the presence of nearby OOB. These stakes do not define the OOB margin but simply identify it.

Out of bounds ’’ is beyond the boundaries of the course or any part of the course so marked by the Committee .

When out of bounds is defined by reference to stakes or a fence or as being beyond stakes or a fence, the out of bounds line is determined by the nearest inside points at ground level of the stakes or fence posts (excluding angled supports). When both stakes and lines are used to indicate out of bounds , the stakes identify out of bounds and the lines define out of bounds . When out of bounds is defined by a line on the ground, the line itself is out of bounds . The out of bounds line extends vertically upwards and downwards.

Remember, the OOB margin may well be inside boundary of the land owned by the club.

[Rulesman]

An amendment to the above post where I wrote.

In which case they are also defining the OOB and are not Obstructions and must not be moved.

Should have been:

When both stakes and lines are used to indicate out of bounds , the stakes identify out of bounds and the lines define out of bounds .

Stakes identifying out of bounds are not obstructions and are deemed to be fixed.

[Dormie1360]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeph

Quote:

Objects defining out of bounds such as walls, fences, stakes and railings are not obstructions and are deemed to be fixed. Stakes identifying out of bounds are not obstructions and are deemed to be fixed.
Note 2: A Committee may make a Local Rule declaring stakes identifying but not defining out of bounds to be obstructions.

You are not allowed to move an OOB stake.

I would say the same thing if someone asks, but as a trivia point don't move an OB stake if you are doing so to improve your swing, stance, or intended line of play.  If you move an OB stake for some other reason, like you're trying to walk to your ball further down the hole and you move an OB stake, no penalty.  Also, you are allowed to fairly take your stance, and there are situations where that means your butt or leg could move the OB stake slightly when taking your stance.

[inthehole]

along the same line, how about if your ball winds up next to one of the signs we all see near the greens identifying where you can no longer drive your cart forward, or a yardage marker post in the fairway  (in bounds)  ... seems to me these should be considered same as loose impediments ?     Am I correct, or should a penalty be assessed for moving them when otherwise you would hit them with your club or ball if you chose to take the shot ?

[Dormie1360]

Originally Posted by inthehole

along the same line, how about if your ball winds up next to one of the signs we all see near the greens identifying where you can no longer drive your cart forward, or a yardage marker post in the fairway  (in bounds)  ... seems to me these should be considered same as loose impediments ?     Am I correct, or should a penalty be assessed for moving them when otherwise you would hit them with your club or ball if you chose to take the shot ?

An obstruction is considered movable if it can be moved with unreasonable effort, undo delay, and without causing damage.  You may move movable obstructions.  If it's not movable, you get relief if it affects your swing or stance, you do not get line of play relief, however.  In this case relief is obtained by dropping within one club lenght from the nearest point of relief, not nearer the hole.

If something is defined as "fixed" or an integral of the course it is not an obstruction and you do not get relief .

The things you mentioned are obstructions.  If they fall under the definition of "movable" you may move them.

One difference between loose impediments and movable obstrucions, if your ball moves while moving an obstruction there is not penalty and the ball must be replaced.  This is not the case with loose impediments.  If your ball moves there is a penalty unless the ball lies on the green.

[inthehole]

Originally Posted by Dormie1360

An obstruction is considered movable if it can be moved with unreasonable effort, undo delay, and without causing damage.  You may move movable obstructions.  If it's not movable, you get relief if it affects your swing or stance, you do not get line of play relief, however.  In this case relief is obtained by dropping within one club lenght from the nearest point of relief, not nearer the hole.

If something is defined as "fixed" or an integral of the course it is not an obstruction and you do not get relief .

The things you mentioned are obstructions.  If they fall under the definition of "movable" you may move them.

One difference between loose impediments and movable obstrucions, if your ball moves while moving an obstruction there is not penalty and the ball must be replaced.  This is not the case with loose impediments.  If your ball moves there is a penalty unless the ball lies on the green.

Thx for the clarification

[Rulesman]

Originally Posted by inthehole

along the same line, how about if your ball winds up next to one of the signs we all see near the greens identifying where you can no longer drive your cart forward, or a yardage marker post in the fairway  (in bounds)  ... seems to me these should be considered same as loose impediments ?     Am I correct, or should a penalty be assessed for moving them when otherwise you would hit them with your club or ball if you chose to take the shot ?

As these signs are artificial or man-made they are obstructions. Loose impediments are natural objects.

The difference between a cigar butt and a detached tobacco leaf.