The essence of the golf swing

[mikee123]

With all due respect to you, I think you have been playing golf for so long that you cant see the forest through the trees anymore.  Or maybe you just spend too much time in there (just kidding *nudge*).  Whoever said that it is your belief system that is getting in the way, is bang on.  You're decreeing the truth and posting it so you can inform everyone, "the way it is".

I'm sure you're intentions were to try and dispel the myth of the golf swing with the expertise you have acquired over the last 60 years to achieve a 13.4 hdcp.  A noble intention for sure and one to be appreciated.  The problem is you come across as a bit of a righteous douche bag that is incapable of having a discussion.  You start out wanting to help and then you end up defending what you understand to be the truth.  Sound familiar?  I'll bet you have become a professional at explaining why you're right about everything over the last 60 year!

Lighten up a little and listen to others sometime.  Especially the guy who manages the site.  Have you seen that impact position on his avatar?  One word to describe that... SWEEETTTTT!!!

M-

footnote:  Douche bag = An individual who has an over-inflated sense of self worth, compounded by a low level of intelligence, behaving ridiculously in front of colleagues with no sense of how moronic he appears.

[dreichert]

Originally Posted by iacas

Or you could exist in reality, where nothing you said is true even close to being accurate all of the time.

Virtually nobody on the PGA Tour is left-handed playing as a righty. They're almost all righties playing as righties.

Why don't you provide some information to refute to  what I've been saying instead of just trying to insult me, but hurling insults seems to be the goal of this forum.

Your second statement is patently false.  You provide no factual information to support the statement.  If you read my original post  you would find that I listed several tour pros who play right handed but are natural lefties or are ambidextrous.  It appears that you think any statement you make is correct by definition.   It doesn't generally work that way though I realize that many people will believe any thing they see in print.  To paraphrase an old German saying  "not even the god can conquer stupidity".

[dreichert]

Originally Posted by mikee123

With all due respect to you, I think you have been playing golf for so long that you cant see the forest through the trees anymore.  Or maybe you just spend too much time in there (just kidding *nudge*).  Whoever said that it is your belief system that is getting in the way, is bang on.  You're decreeing the truth and posting it so you can inform everyone, "the way it is".

I'm sure you're intentions were to try and dispel the myth of the golf swing with the expertise you have acquired over the last 60 years to achieve a 13.4 hdcp.  A noble intention for sure and one to be appreciated.  The problem is you come across as a bit of a righteous douche bag that is incapable of having a discussion.  You start out wanting to help and then you end up defending what you understand to be the truth.  Sound familiar?  I'll bet you have become a professional at explaining why you're right about everything over the last 60 year!

Lighten up a little and listen to others sometime.  Especially the guy who manages the site.  Have you seen that impact position on his avatar?  One word to describe that... SWEEETTTTT!!!

M-

footnote:  Douche bag = An individual who has an over-inflated sense of self worth, compounded by a low level of intelligence, behaving ridiculously in front of colleagues with no sense of how moronic he appears.

If you believe I am wrong why don't you provide some information to refute it instead of just throwing  insults at me. The person who has nothing to offer but insults is trying to cover up the fact that he  knows nothing about the subject under discussion.  It doesn't take any smarts to  insult another and only reflects badly on the person who does the insulting.

I'll listen to others when they have something intelligent to say and not just meaningless bullshit.

The good impact position is great but it is how to consistently get to that position that is important.

[carpediem4300]

so the left arm controls the radius,......and the right has nothing to do except propel the lcub through impact

so the right arm can do what it likes on the backswing so long as it doesnt take over or control anything?,.....so it can chicken wing its all it likes and make no difference?,....it can get stuck behind the body, but make no difference?

I see the logic that the right hand/arm should not dominate the backswing (We all knew that from the first lesson we had or the first golfing book we read on technique, the fact it took you 60 years to realise that is ridiculous)

But what we dont see the logic in is "forgetting all about it until the downswing" which is what you seem to be advocating,....

its a well known fact that all parts of the body sync up in a golf swing,....trying to employ one part of the body independently to the other at various stages of the swing will lead to nothing but an incoherent, inconsistent, un-predictable swing

the fact you rubbish these "pros" that werent good enough for this or for that is obsurd as they are infinetly better than you are ever likely to be, i would bet my house that only 1 out 100 pros is rubbish and to be avoided,...the other 99 most likely share the upmost of passion for the game of golf and wish to help you succeed to the best of your ability

most people that wish to debate a swing thought, or drill tend to start their thread with "i was at the range and had a revelation, what would your take on this be?",...............you started your thread with rubbishing pros/teachers and trying to decree that what you have "learnt" or "figured out" is fact and the rest of the world is wrong, your right and we should all listen to

its a classic troll and flame thread,....so either your abhorrently stupid,....or excpetionally smart,.....i believe the former

FWIW my swing is very left arm dominated and is very flat,....my pro has me working witht he right arm much more to create a much more upright club plane,...ive gone from 28 handicap to 16 since january,...and continue to improve with every lesson

[iacas]

Originally Posted by dreichert

Type one swings correctly the first time he/she picks up a club and breaks 70 within one to two years. This type of player will almost certainly be left handed (swinging righty) or  ambidextrous.

Where's your proof?

Originally Posted by dreichert

Why don't you provide some information to refute to  what I've been saying instead of just trying to insult me, but hurling insults seems to be the goal of this forum.

Where are the insults? I suggested you exist in reality, instead of whatever made-up-fairy-land you seem to call your mental home state.

Originally Posted by dreichert

Your second statement is patently false.  You provide no factual information to support the statement.  If you read my original post  you would find that I listed several tour pros who play right handed but are natural lefties or are ambidextrous.  It appears that you think any statement you make is correct by definition.   It doesn't generally work that way though I realize that many people will believe any thing they see in print.  To paraphrase an old German saying  "not even the god can conquer stupidity".

Several. I said "They're almost all righties playing as righties."  This is true. Look it up. Or watch them sign autographs.

BTW, most of the right-handed golfers you listed are right-handed. The fact that you had to use examples of people who aren't playing the game any more should have been enough for you to consider that very, very, very few right-handed golfers are natural lefties.

BTW:

Whoops.

Originally Posted by dreichert

If you believe I am wrong why don't you provide some information to refute it instead of just throwing  insults at me. The person who has nothing to offer but insults is trying to cover up the fact that he  knows nothing about the subject under discussion.  It doesn't take any smarts to  insult another and only reflects badly on the person who does the insulting.

And all it takes is a Google search to discover that the "facts" in your first post are incorrect.

Originally Posted by dreichert

I'll listen to others when they have something intelligent to say and not just meaningless bullshit.

Might that explain why most everyone here isn't listening to you?

Originally Posted by dreichert

The good impact position is great but it is how to consistently get to that position that is important.

I get there by using both of my arms (as well as the rest of my body).

Quote:

Originally Posted by carpediem4300

FWIW my swing is very left arm dominated and is very flat,....my pro has me working witht he right arm much more to create a much more upright club plane,...ive gone from 28 handicap to 16 since january,...and continue to improve with every lesson

Good work and nice improvement!

[carpediem4300]

Thanks :)

[soon_tourpro]

Unless you shoot under 60 at your local club, you have not much of an essence.

I find "secrets" and other such as essence so funny.

None are able to take what Hogan did and do it.

[dreichert]

Originally Posted by carpediem4300

so the left arm controls the radius,......and the right has nothing to do except propel the lcub through impact

so the right arm can do what it likes on the backswing so long as it doesnt take over or control anything?,.....so it can chicken wing its all it likes and make no difference?,....it can get stuck behind the body, but make no difference?

I see the logic that the right hand/arm should not dominate the backswing (We all knew that from the first lesson we had or the first golfing book we read on technique, the fact it took you 60 years to realise that is ridiculous)

But what we dont see the logic in is "forgetting all about it until the downswing" which is what you seem to be advocating,....

its a well known fact that all parts of the body sync up in a golf swing,....trying to employ one part of the body independently to the other at various stages of the swing will lead to nothing but an incoherent, inconsistent, un-predictable swing

the fact you rubbish these "pros" that werent good enough for this or for that is obsurd as they are infinetly better than you are ever likely to be, i would bet my house that only 1 out 100 pros is rubbish and to be avoided,...the other 99 most likely share the upmost of passion for the game of golf and wish to help you succeed to the best of your ability

most people that wish to debate a swing thought, or drill tend to start their thread with "i was at the range and had a revelation, what would your take on this be?",...............you started your thread with rubbishing pros/teachers and trying to decree that what you have "learnt" or "figured out" is fact and the rest of the world is wrong, your right and we should all listen to

its a classic troll and flame thread,....so either your abhorrently stupid,....or excpetionally smart,.....i believe the former

FWIW my swing is very left arm dominated and is very flat,....my pro has me working witht he right arm much more to create a much more upright club plane,...ive gone from 28 handicap to 16 since january,...and continue to improve with every lesson

The right arm is passive in the swing until near impact and if the swing is being controlled by the left arm, the right arm can't chicken wing or get behind you.    That can only happen if the right arm takes control.

I had suspected that left arm control was an essential in the golf swing for many years but only became convinced of it when I quit taking golf lessons and tried to achieve left arm control on my own.  When I do it properly I hit only good shots and all of bad shots occur when the right arm takes over.  This is true for any player, not that you can't hit some good shots with right arm control but you can't hit good shots consistently that way.

Again, the right arm must remain passive.  I find that if you can keep the left arm in control to the top of the back swing, usually the rest of the swing will occur automatically and it is hard to screw it up from there.  The downswing occurs too fast to make any adjustments though any golf instruction I have ever had  and the vast majority of instruction in golf publications try to make alterations in the downswing and ignore the backswing.

The body movements occur automatically if the left arm controls the club in the swing to near the point of impact.  Trying  to "sync" movement of each and every one of the body parts individually is almost impossible if you really think about it.  For consistency the swing has to be simple and easily repeatable which is what left arm control achieves.

I must have been very unlucky as all of the approximately ten golf instructors I have had over the years tried to teach downswing methods impossible to perform.  I apparently didn't pick one of the competent nine hundred ninety if only one in a hundred don't teach "rubbish" as you say.

Any of the "revelations" about the golf swing I have had on the range are proven false by no later then by the 6th hole of the ensuing round. My range thoughts that ended up in the garbage bin number in the thousands.  I am certain I am right on left arm control mechanics.  Until you can explain why many if not most of the touring pros are left handed playing righty (or are ambidextrous), demonstrating the importance of left arm control, I will continue to convinced that what I say about swing mechanics is true.  I listed several instances in my post of tour pros left handed playing righty or vise versa.  You can also find this on an internet search.  If you look for it in good players as I have you will be surprised at the frequency of this phenomenon.  Watch the right handed tour pro  when he marks his ball or scorecard or signs autographs you will see what I mean.  If you finish playing with any good player then have lunch together many will eat with their left hand.

Most golfers will improve their scores if they play and practice frequently with or without instruction.  The level of competence achieved will depend principally on the amount of play/practice and the severity of the underlying mechanical faults in the swing.  With the possible exception of superior athletic ability, the only way for a right hand dominant golfer can become a low handicap or scratch golfer is to follow the example of Phil Mickelson and Bob Charles and swing left handed from the beginning.  This is what golf instructors should be teaching. Once a right hander has established a right hand dominant swing this is very difficult to do.

To learn  more about the correct mechanics of the golf swing, I suggest you read the two books authored by Carl Lohren: "One move to Better Golf" and " Getting Set For Golf",

[dreichert]

Originally Posted by soon_tourpro

Unless you shoot under 60 at your local club, you have not much of an essence.

I find "secrets" and other such as essence so funny.

None are able to take what Hogan did and do it..

Any right handed golfer who can shoot sixty at his local club had a good  swing the first time he picked up a club most likely because he is left handed or ambidextrous.  He probably knows no more about swing mechanics than the average handicap golfer.  Why should he?  His swing was great when he started and learning and trying incorporate mechanics into the swing would most likely screw up his swing.  He probably doesn't know the correct mechanics of the swing and thus couldn't teach them.

Hogan by the way was a natural left hander.  The theories outlined in his book "Five Lessons: The Modern Fundamentals of Golf" are questioned by some modern day "swing gurus".  Jim McClean among others dispute his idea that the first move in the downswing was turn of the left hip to the left.  Videos of his swing are said to show  that his hips first move laterally rather than turn.  The feature article in the February 2012 issue of Golf magazine by top100 teacher Mike Adams questions Hogan's swing plane theory.  Also in that issue Paul Marchand on page 54 stresses the necessity of left arm and hand control of the swing to correct a slice. A slice he feels is is due to right arm control of the swing.  A few these guys do understand correct swing mechanics

[dreichert]

Originally Posted by iacas

Several. I said "They're almost all righties playing as righties."  This is true. Look it up. Or watch them sign autographs.

I said they were natural left handers or ambidextrous which would explain all of your autograph signers.  I have looked it up and you're still wrong.  I don't pull facts out of the air like you do.

And all it takes is a Google search to discover that the "facts" in your first post are incorrect.

Apparently you haven't bothered to do a google search on the "facts" in my first post because that is the source of these "facts"

BTW, most of the right-handed golfers you listed are right-handed. The fact that you had to use examples of people who aren't playing the game any more should have been enough for you to consider that very, very, very few right-handed golfers are natural lefties.

Are you saying that modern tour pros are different from those from the past.  Now that REALLY makes sense.

I get there by using both of my arms (as well as the rest of my body).

You won't get to that position very often unless you have a better understanding of the correct swing mechanics learn to implement them.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by dreichert

The right arm is passive in the swing until near impact and if the swing is being controlled by the left arm, the right arm can't chicken wing or get behind you.    That can only happen if the right arm takes control.

Lots of statements of fact without any actual evidence. Why would straightening the right arm from the top - which will push the left arm across the chest if done anywhere near the proper direction as used in a golf swing - get the right arm to "chicken wing or get behind you?"

Originally Posted by dreichert

I had suspected that left arm control was an essential in the golf swing for many years but only became convinced of it when I quit taking golf lessons and tried to achieve left arm control on my own.  When I do it properly I hit only good shots and all of bad shots occur when the right arm takes over.  This is true for any player, not that you can't hit some good shots with right arm control but you can't hit good shots consistently that way.

No, what happened is this. You found a feeling you like that enabled you to break 90. Where you hop on the crazy train is where you say things like "this is true for any player."

They've done tests. Both arms (and the muscles in the shoulders, torso, etc.) fire on the downswing for EVERY player. There's no "hitting" and "swinging" like TGM, nor is there "only left arm." Both arms are used from the top of the backswing.

Originally Posted by dreichert

Any right handed golfer who can shoot sixty at his local club had a good swing the first time he picked up a club most likely because he is left handed or ambidextrous.

Not many guys are shooting 60 at their local golf clubs. And if you're suggesting that nearly every golf club's best member is a lefty playing righty I think you're nuts.

Originally Posted by dreichert

Hogan by the way was a natural left hander.

Current consensus is that you're wrong. He started playing golf with a left-handed club because that's the only club he had, but he's always been right-handed.

Originally Posted by dreichert

Jim McClean among others dispute his idea that the first move in the downswing was turn of the left hip to the left.  Videos of his swing are said to show  that his hips first move laterally rather than turn.

I agree with that, though the lateral and the turning are blended together. There's certainly a lateral component, though, and people miss that. I have several pictures illustrating how much Ben slid towards the target.

Originally Posted by dreichert

I said they were natural left handers or ambidextrous which would explain all of your autograph signers. I have looked it up and you're still wrong.  I don't pull facts out of the air like you do.

Why would people sign autographs with their right hand if they're left-handed? I didn't pull facts out of the air; I posted pictures. Greg Norman, left-handed guy who played righty. Curtis Strange too. Phil Mickelson (vice versa). But the point remains…

Originally Posted by dreichert

Are you saying that modern tour pros are different from those from the past.  Now that REALLY makes sense.

… Nope. I was simply pointing out that you're attempting to claim that the majority of PGA Tour players are natural lefties or ambidextrous, yet play righty (or vice versa), yet you have to dip back to Greg Norman and Curtis Strange just to get your list to, what, seven or eight? There are 150+ players with PGA Tour status right now, so if you want to go back to the 1990s or earlier, to Hogan, then we're way into the thousands, and you listed seven or eight players.

Your claims don't match the facts. Of the top 10 players in the world, the majority are righties playing righty. The same for the top 20, top 30, top 40, top 50 and in fact the entire exempt list.

Originally Posted by dreichert

You won't get to that position very often unless you have a better understanding of the correct swing mechanics learn to implement them.

I think I get there more often than you, thanks. Oh, and my recent work? More use of the right arm. Seeing as how it's connected to the left arm via the grip of the club, moving one moves the other. Of course, I still realize my left arm is working as well, but feel ain't real.

Executive summary of your point: you found something that you think works in your swing. It's a feel, it's not real, and you now think everyone on the planet should swing this way.

[Limpinswinger]

Originally Posted by mikee123

With all due respect to you . . . .

The problem is you come across as a bit of a righteous douche bag that is incapable of having a discussion. . . .

footnote:  Douche bag = An individual who has an over-inflated sense of self worth, compounded by a low level of intelligence, behaving ridiculously in front of colleagues with no sense of how moronic he appears.

It seems that you are saying not much respect is due?

[dreichert]

I didn't say the right arm straightens at the top.  It starts to straighten just before impact and continues to straighten after impact until fully extended in the good player.

Its not a feel but the true mechanics of the swing.

What tests are you referring to?  I'm not aware of any such tests.  Can you cite a reference. When one uses the right arm at the start of the downswing it is likely to take over and the left arm can't maintain the correct arc.  As a result you will come over the top.

I stand by my statement that players who can shoot 60 or below are very likely to be ambidextrous or left handed.  Neither you nor I can prove our assertions at this point.

On googling whether Hogan was right or left handed, all but two of the many contributors stated that Hogan was left handed without citing their sources.  One of the two  people opposing this assertion was Hogan himself in an interview in 1987 in Golf magazine in which he said he said that he was right handed.  Why so many sources cite him being left handed is puzzling.  It's possible that Hogan's statement of being right handed was done for some reason other than it being true.  Obviously he is the  best source so I must concede to you on this point.

As I mentioned the players in the pictures could have been ambidextrous being predominately lefties and right handed only in writing.  In fact it was common in the past and continues to some extent even in the present that when left handers were first taught to write they were forced to write right handed.  This was accomplished by tying the left hand behind their backs or to their chair or slapping the left hand when it was used to write. This could certainly explain lefties signing right handed as demonstrated in the photos. "The Converted Left Hander" Sattler 2004).

Add to list Christie Kerr (autograph using Left hand), Scott Piercy (used left hand to mark ball), and Nick Price (google search).  You have no evidence that all of the rest of the tour pros are right handers.   All of them could just as well be left handers.  At least I have provided several examples of left handers playing righty.  You have provided no examples to support your claim.

You cannot prove that the majority of the top fifty tour pros are righties playing right handed. You'll have to document that statement if you can.

The fact that both arms are on the grip doesn't say anything about which arm should dominate in any part of the swing.   If the right hand control is equal to the left  in the early part of the swing it is likely to take over and take the club off the proper arc.  This requires a major re-rout somewhere later in the swing.  Left hand control of the back and early downswing is a reality not a feel.

[iacas]

Now you've just gone into the land of the ludicrous.

Originally Posted by dreichert

I didn't say the right arm straightens at the top.  It starts to straighten just before impact and continues to straighten after impact until fully extended in the good player.

It begins straightening during the downswing. It's bent at the top, and straight just after impact. It's not bent at 90° throughout most of the downswing.

Originally Posted by dreichert

What tests are you referring to?  I'm not aware of any such tests.  Can you cite a reference. When one uses the right arm at the start of the downswing it is likely to take over and the left arm can't maintain the correct arc.  As a result you will come over the top.

Look them up yourself. They've attached sensors and measured how muscles work in a golf swing. You're 100% wrong about coming over the top and maintaining the correct arc. My left arm could be a piece of string and I could maintain the correct arc if the direction of force of my right arm straightening is in the proper direction.

Originally Posted by dreichert

I stand by my statement that players who can shoot 60 or below are very likely to be ambidextrous or left handed. Neither you nor I can prove our assertions at this point.

How many people are shooting "60 or below" again? C'mon.

Originally Posted by dreichert

As I mentioned the players in the pictures could have been ambidextrous being predominately lefties and right handed only in writing.  In fact it was common in the past and continues to some extent even in the present that when left handers were first taught to write they were forced to write right handed. This was accomplished by tying the left hand behind their backs or to their chair or slapping the left hand when it was used to write. This could certainly explain lefties signing right handed as demonstrated in the photos. "The Converted Left Hander" Sattler 2004).

Yeah, cuz Adam Scott and Sergio Garcia had their arms tied behind their backs. Give me a break.

Originally Posted by dreichert

Add to list Christie Kerr (autograph using Left hand), Scott Piercy (used left hand to mark ball), and Nick Price (google search). You have no evidence that all of the rest of the tour pros are right handers.   All of them could just as well be left handers.  At least I have provided several examples of left handers playing righty.  You have provided no examples to support your claim.

I've seen them give autographs. You're the one making the silly claims - you back it up with proof. I'm content with my position, having seen the players we're talking about. Here are two natural righties: Tiger Woods. Jack Nicklaus. Arnold Palmer too. Gary Player. Tom Watson.

Statistically, 10% of people are lefties. So I'd expect about 5 of the top 50 to be lefties. You need 25 of them to be opposite handed. Good luck. I look forward to your list and references.

Originally Posted by dreichert

Left hand control of the back and early downswing is a reality not a feel.

Uh hmmm. In the world you're living in, that may very well be true. It's not this world, though.

[dreichert]

Originally Posted by iacas

Now you've just gone into the land of the ludicrous.

It begins straightening during the downswing. It's bent at the top, and straight just after impact. It's not bent at 90° throughout most of the downswing.

Look them up yourself. They've attached sensors and measured how muscles work in a golf swing. You're 100% wrong about coming over the top and maintaining the correct arc. My left arm could be a piece of string and I could maintain the correct arc if the direction of force of my right arm straightening is in the proper direction.

How many people are shooting "60 or below" again? C'mon.

Yeah, cuz Adam Scott and Sergio Garcia had their arms tied behind their backs. Give me a break.

I've seen them give autographs. You're the one making the silly claims - you back it up with proof. I'm content with my position, having seen the players we're talking about. Here are two natural righties: Tiger Woods. Jack Nicklaus. Arnold Palmer too. Gary Player. Tom Watson.

Statistically, 10% of people are lefties. So I'd expect about 5 of the top 50 to be lefties. You need 25 of them to be opposite handed. Good luck. I look forward to your list and references.

Uh hmmm. In the world you're living in, that may very well be true. It's not this world, though.

Ludicrous?  Since you have no intelligent responses to the statements I made in the previous post you must cover up this fact by calling them ludicrous.

If you begin to straighten the right arm early in the downswing you lose the lag which should be created in the downswing and lose a major power source.

I can't look up anything about the tests because I don't believe they ever happened. Why waste my time.  This is another statement you pulled out of the air (to be kind I won't mention the other place they might have been pulled from)   You made the statement  about the "tests" so you document it,  You can't because they were never performed.

The statement about shooting 60 or below state was a response to an earlier post by soon-tour pro and not my original post.  You really should read the posts more carefully.

Comments you made about Sergio and Adam Scott are very lame attempts to distract from the issue of left handers being taught to write right handed.

I don't dispute that you saw them signing autographs.  I'm saying that left handers are often taught to write handed so seeing someone sign an autograph right handed  has no rmeaning as to whether they are left handed or not.  This is simple  logic that you are failing to grasp.  I did provide a reference to prove my point that left hander have been and are being taught to write right handed ("The Converted Left Hander" Sattler 2004).  Either you missed this when you read my post or you have chosen to ignore it as it blows your contention that signing autographs right handed proves right handedness completely out of the water. Greg Norman and Sergio Garcia are documented to be left handers and Adam Scott to be ambidextrous.  I'm still not convinced that Ben Hogan was not a left hander, the data is conflicting.  Jack Nicklaus was left eye dominant and therefore  at least to some degree ambidextrous.  I  read once that Palmer was left handed but generally have always considered him a right hander.  I have never researched Tiger Woods or Tom Watson in regard to hand dominance but it would not be surprising if they also are ambidextrous.

The concept that you cannot apply 10 percent left handedness in the total population to a specific group such as tour pros is apparently beyond your ability to comprehend.  Basically  you cannot draw any conclusions  about the per cent of left handed tour pros based on the percent  of left handers in the total population.  And we do not know what per cent of tour pros have the advantage of being ambidextrous in a left sided controlled golf swing.  I've already provided a list of left handed tour pros playing right handed and for all we know all touring pros playing right handed are left handed or ambidextrous.  You certainly have no documented that any tour pro playing right handed is not ambidextrous or a left hander.  I doubt you even know what a reference is as you have provided none and I have when it was appropriate and you couldn't recognize it.

Arguing with you is akin to arguing with a stone.  You cannot even recognize when you have lost an argument.  Much of what you say is illogical and you make unfounded claims and tell me I should document them.  Your position is in reality completely untenable and how you can be comfortable with it is beyond my comprehension.

Belatedly I realize it is a complete waste of time to debate an issue with you and I will not do so in the future.

[soon_tourpro]

Originally Posted by dreichert

If you begin to straighten the right arm early in the downswing you lose the lag which should be created in the downswing and lose a major power source.

Belatedly I realize it is a complete waste of time to debate an issue with you and I will not do so in the future.

I havent found much intelligence in any golf forum as far as its drowned in the masses of theory and search for secrets.

Your statement above is correct.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by dreichert

Ludicrous?  Since you have no intelligent responses to the statements I made in the previous post you must cover up this fact by calling them ludicrous.

I pointed out that you're full of unsubstantiated shit. That's gotta count for something.

You're here peddling a single swing "feel" that works to allow you to break 90 on occasion but which does not apply to everyone at all, and backing it with made-up stats like "people who break 60 on their home course" as if those people exist and "the majority of PGA Tour golfers are natural lefties."

I think people see you for exactly the person (or troll) you are.

Originally Posted by dreichert

If you begin to straighten the right arm early in the downswing you lose the lag which should be created in the downswing and lose a major power source.

Define "early."

And lag isn't the right elbow. Lag is typically measured in the wrist joints. Zuback straightens his right elbow pretty darn early. Still hits it pretty far. How about you substantiate your opinion with some images or definitions or specifics?

Originally Posted by dreichert

Comments you made about Sergio and Adam Scott are very lame attempts to distract from the issue of left handers being taught to write right handed.

I don't think you've proven that Adam Scott and Sergio Garcia are left-handed. Evidence points to them being natural righties.

Originally Posted by dreichert

I don't dispute that you saw them signing autographs.  I'm saying that left handers are often taught to write handed so seeing someone sign an autograph right handed  has no rmeaning as to whether they are left handed or not.  This is simple  logic that you are failing to grasp.

Occam's Razor, buddy. They aren't lefties.

Your reference proves nothing with regards to the PGA Tour. You can't even prove that even 15 of the top 50 are natural lefties let alone 26 of them.

Originally Posted by dreichert

Jack Nicklaus was left eye dominant and therefore  at least to some degree ambidextrous.

Yeah, that makes sense. Oh wait, I get it now. They all HAVE left hands, and were even BORN with them, so by your thinking, they're natural lefties! I get it now!

Originally Posted by dreichert

The concept that you cannot apply 10 percent left handedness in the total population to a specific group such as tour pros is apparently beyond your ability to comprehend.

It's not actually. It simply means you've got a tough row to hoe if you want to prove anything. It's statistically unlikely that the majority of the top 50 or top xxx on the PGA Tour are natural lefties playing as righties.

Originally Posted by dreichert

I've already provided a list of left handed tour pros playing right handed and for all we know all touring pros playing right handed are left handed or ambidextrous.

Your list is bogus, and even if it was 100% accurate (it wasn't even 50% accurate), it's seven players out of thousands.

I'm content to let you claim that arguing with me is like arguing with a stone. I think the record speaks for itself.

Take care.

P.S. http://bjsm.bmj.com/content/39/11/799.full and other studies like it.